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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: alpsman on November 26, 2008, 12:42:43 AM
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I listened( and watched) in a burn dvd M5 with Eschenbach/Philadelphia from a concert in Japan in 2005. This was a great performance. The sound of the Philadelphians is full, warm and espressive. Eschenbach captures the Vienna fin-de-siecle mood perfectly. He plays the first outburtst after the fanfare sostenuto without hurry.
The scherzo has great virtuosity and the middle section, that cello lament which Abbado played breathtaking in a live concert I had attend, is trully Klagende.
The Adagieto is about 12 minutes and for me there is nothing wrong with this. Timing tells not the whole truth, it is the phrasing and the sonority that counts. The philys played this very well also under Levine.
The finale has joy, virtuosity and majesty and humor in perfect analogies.
So after a rather wining M6 and efforts in M8 and M9( these performances i know), I think Eschenbach can be considered a serious mahlerian, much better in my opinion than Gergiev for whom I continue to thing it's not (my) "natural"mahlerian.
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I heard him conducting M3 (can't recall the orchestra), M5 (Houston SO), M6 (NYPO and PO), M9 (A German orchestra) and can attest they all sounded great. He is somewhere between MTT and Tennstedt with lots of flexible tempos, mostly on a slow side. His Mahler is not certainly boring, never dull. I just wish that he has recorded more Mahler with top notch orchestras.
John
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Some years ago, he conducted in my town a beautiful program consisting of Schönberg Verklärte Nacht and M1. The Phildalephia O. was magnificent, and I still remember the real mahlerian taste of that performance.
As for Gergiev as a mahlerian, I have attended two performaces of him: I liked neither M2 nor M3.. I don't think this kind of sound, rough, uneven.. is fitting for Mahler music.
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I consider Eschenbach a serious Mahlerian. I heard him conduct M2 here in Houston when he was the main conductor here 10-12 years ago, which I found quite exciting (soloists were Florence Quivar and Ying Huang). He also recorded a superb (to my ears) M1 with the Houston Symphony while they were on tour in Europe (not sure that CD is in print now). I quite like the M6 with the PO and am looking forward to more.
I don't know that I find him to be on the slow side for the most part. he certainly tends that way with movements like the M6 andante and apparently the M5 adagietto. His 2nd movement in M1 is one of those that is somewhat slow, but then picks up speed (sort of like Bernstein). However, the opening movement of M6 is quite brisk. I seem to remember the Totenfeier of M2 concert being exciting and not slow. Don't remember how fast or slow the other movements were. I think he tends to sort of wallow in big lyrical movements. Remember the criticism of his Saint-Saens organ symphony for its drawn-out poco adagio. I still found that performance to be exciting (the SACD organ had a lot to do with it).
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I would love to hear an Eschenback M2 or M3.
--Todd
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Eschenbach will be conducting M3 with CPO this Thursday/Friday (4th/5th December).
http://www.ceskafilharmonie.cz/en/content_koncerty2.php?datum=1228345200 (http://www.ceskafilharmonie.cz/en/content_koncerty2.php?datum=1228345200)
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I consider Eschenbach a serious Mahlerian. I heard him conduct M2 here in Houston when he was the main conductor here 10-12 years ago, which I found quite exciting (soloists were Florence Quivar and Ying Huang). He also recorded a superb (to my ears) M1 with the Houston Symphony while they were on tour in Europe (not sure that CD is in print now). I quite like the M6 with the PO and am looking forward to more.
I'm another Houstonian, but was never able to see Eschenbach conduct Mahler. However, I really love all of his Mahler recordings. The M1 recording is on the Koch label and should be available (perhaps Berkshire Record Outlet still has it). It is one of my first tier favorites. He also had a phenomenal M5 that was made available to HSO subscribers a while back (recorded on tour in Vienna). The release predated my subscription, but I have a burned copy of it. The adagietto is quite long at 12+ minutes, but still utterly enjoyable (I prefer a sub-10' one, but the longer ones can still work fine IMO). The first two movements are intense and well-played. The finale is absolutely thrilling -- one of the best I have heard. His Philly M6 is easily one of my favorites. I also have a CD-R of an M9 with the German NDR SO, which I believe to be a subscriber-type release like the HSO M5. The M9 has long outer movements and an intense R-B -- another excellent performance.
So Eschenbach makes my list of great Mahlerians. I would have loved a few more SACD releases with the Philly O, though!
PS - I've had mixed feelings about some Opera-share downloads I've heard -- but I'm ignoring those.
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Eschenbach once led Boston Symphony Orch. playing Mahler First at Tanglewood in early 90's. That was by far the greatest and most unique performance of this symphony I ever heard. The slow passages were extremely slow but he almost rushed through the fast parts (e.g., the coda of IV). It had a strange effect of making the audience, during the slow passages, to anxiously anticipate for climaxes with a great expectation , and vice versa. The result was a concert filled with suspense and thrills, fully satisfying the audience in the end.
John,
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Regarding Eschenbach's Mahlerian credentials: Has anyone of you checked out his M8 with the the Orchestre de Paris on YouTube?
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7F4584970D40FBE5 (YouTube playlist link)
It has probably the slowest ending I've ever heard in M8 - and a particularly interesting twist regarding the altos' entrance at 6:20 in in the last part of the videos. :)
Those Orchestre de Paris videos are extremely stylish by the way - they even seem to have done away with the professional symphony orchestra's traditional white tie outfit entirely...
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Is he a "great" Mahlerian? No. To be a great Mahler conductor you have to be a great conductor, period. Eschenbach is certainly not a great conductor by any stretch of the imagination--he is an interesting musician who sometimes has good ideas, and who delivers the occasional outstanding performance. It is for this same reason that I categorically deny the notion of "Mahler conductors" or "Wagner conductors"--i.e. Horenstein, Goodall, and their ilk--because the closer you listen the more pitiful their few paltry ideas become, and more glaring their general incompetence appears.
Dave H
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I just picked up his new Philly Mahler 2, and I think it's pretty darn good. I generally don't like expansive performances, but he pulls them off better than most. I wish he and Philly would recording M3 and M9 as well.
Barry
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I have just seen Esenbach in 2 concerts with the Phily orchestra.
He is a very poor conductor, with no technique at all. At the start of the first concert, Beethoven´s Egmont, he fluffed the first entry. Not to mention a racious Schubert 9 and a Bruckner 6 without an once of finesse.
Let us remember that he was fired simultaneously from 2 orchestras: Phily and Paris, quite a unique feat that I had never befopre seen with anyone.
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"Let us remember that he was fired simultaneously from 2 orchestras: Phily and Paris, quite a unique feat that I had never before seen with anyone."
I would take that with a grain of salt. He'll continue to guest conductor pretty much everywhere, and plenty of other places will ask him to take on a full-time post. When this sort of thing happens, conductors often switch over to opera for a while. And while few of the recordings Eschenbach has made in Philadelphia would be consider top recommendations by most critics (personally, I like his S-S. "Organ" symphony the best), ask yourself who would have done better over such a broad range of repertoire. Personally, I would take Eschenbach over Dutoit any day. As a performer myself, I find Eschenbach easier to follow than many other big-name conductors. Frankly, I can barely make out the beat - or much of anything else - when watching Rattle or Abbado. I think Philly, or any place else, could do far worse than Eschenbach.
Barry
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Frankly, I can barely make out the beat - or much of anything else - when watching Rattle or Abbado. I think Philly, or any place else, could do far worse than Eschenbach.
When I heard/watched Eschenbach conduct here in Houston, I thought his technique looked good to my untrained eyes. That is to say, his movements were clear and precise. I remember a performance in which he conducted La Valse, and looked like the embodiment of the music. Every time my wife hears La Valse, she pictures Eschenbach on the podium. I agree with Barry that Abbado looks like he would be hard to follow as his movements seem to me to be jerky. Solti seemed that way, too, as if they conduct more with their elbows, which makes their hands or baton difficult to follow. or, so it would seem to me.
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He'll be taking the Schleswig-Holstein Festival Orchestra on a US tour in 2010. It will be Eschenbach's first performance in Houston since he was the Music Director of the Houston Symphony. They are all touring with Lang Lang -- of whom I only have good things to say because he has performed on Sesame Street. ;D
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I saw Eschenbach conduct Bruckner 9 in NY in November. Eschenbach's tempi were a tad slow, but not overly, and the oversized orchestra was in fine form throughout (other than a noticeable flub that was not of his doing). A fine performance of a work that I like a lot.
Unfortunately, the opening "act" was Bang Bang banging away at Beethoven's 1st concerto. Absolutely dreadful. His comic on-stage antics were bad enough, but I could close my eyes and not watch him. But his mauling of the music overshadowed even his squirming and ooozing and swooning. This guy is high on my list for the "Liberace Clown of the Keyboard Award." But the little old ladies loved him. They had no clue what he was playing, but they loved him. So I'm sure the tour will be a success.
I'm putting together my dream team for the concert of the century. To be held in Disney Hall, of course.
Bang Bang (piano), Alisa Weilerstein (cello) and Joshua Bell (violin) playing Beethoven's Triple, accompanied by Portsmouth Sinfonia conducted by Pappano.
In case you've never had the pleasure of hearing the Portsmouth Sinfonia, here are a couple of items from one of their albums.
Also Sprach Zarathustra -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw)
In the Hall of the Mountain King -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wiRivDMIYM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wiRivDMIYM)
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I've heard only the Eschenbach M6, which I thought pretty impressive.
[He reminds me of the pop dj Goldie, who was in a UK celebrity conducting competition. ;D ]
I'll happily argue the toss about Horenstein - on another thread.
Ivor
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Does anyone heard M9 under Eschenbach, Philadelphia in Carnegie 2005?
I heard it and liked very much, great playing, fantastic atmosphere. The recording is mp3-lot of external noises-but very decent, with great dynamic range, more honest than Nott. These two performances are like black and white, the Eschenbach great the Nott nulle.
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alpsman,
I think I heard the performance you mentioned. But I also heard another Eschenbach M9th concert with a German orchestra which was similarly shaped and interpreted. Both M9ths were quite slow - sometimes nearly stalling - but very powerful. I liked them quite much. One thing I noticed him doing on both occasions was adding a percussion to the four notes beats that are repeated following the timpani strokes at start the recapitulation in I. (coming right after the third climax). It's not in the score and had never seen it done elsewhere. I would say, it did little to enhance the musicality but iit was nevertheless interesting and fun to hear.
Did you get it while you're listening?
John,
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John
I have also the german one-I think it's with ndr Hamburg-but have not listen it yet.
You put the thing right , very powerful playing. I like the sonority Eschenbach gets from the orchestra. I found his Mahler very stylish.
On the contrary i was disapointed by a Bruckner 9 live from Vienna last year with the Philharmoniker.
I didn't notice the extra timpani you mentioned, but i will listen for this carefully.
But had you heard what he did in the last sec. in the extremelly pppppp?. ???
There is a loud sneeze, very close and.....well funny. ;D
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I didn't notice the extra timpani you mentioned, but i will listen for this carefully.
It's not the timpani I am talking about. The start of the entire recapitulation goes like,
da-an-ta, dan-taaaaaa (brass in fff), bang-bang, bang-bang (4 timpani strokes), da-an-ta, dan-taaaaaa (brass again in ff), ting-ting, ting-ting (the same 4 strokes repeated in low string pizzicato)
In the last 4 notes Eschenbach adds a percussion (not the timpani, can't recall the name. Rute??) on top of the pizzicato.
Check it out 8).
John,
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John
I heard it, it's in 20:58 and it is definitely something wood sound. Maybe strings col legno, but not all the strings but a group on the left side.
I confirm my first reaction about the quality of this performance, and i like very much the dynamic range( the gran cassa tremolos really shattering the house).
On the contrary the new Nott/M9 has very narrow dynamic range ie. the recording is in high level-so no true ppp and no atmosphere. I am sure about this because I burned your cdr in my cd recorder and not pc, and see the recording level.
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John
I heard it, it's in 20:58 and it is definitely something wood sound. Maybe strings col legno, but not all the strings but a group on the left side.
I confirm my first reaction about the quality of this performance, and i like very much the dynamic range( the gran cassa tremolos really shattering the house).
On the contrary the new Nott/M9 has very narrow dynamic range ie. the recording is in high level-so no true ppp and no atmosphere. I am sure about this because I burned your cdr in my cd recorder and not pc, and see the recording level.
I just listened to the first movement of this Philly M9 yesterday and will listen to the remainder this weekend. Indeed it sounds like a rute to me. I agree that it does not add anything to the performance, but really does not detract either. I'll have to pull out the NDR performance and see if it has the same added "touch". From memory, the conception of the Philly first movement sounds very similar to the NDR one.
I am rather amazed at the good sound quality in the Philly rip. The recording has very good dynamics, clarity, and captures the lower frequencies particularly well. The Opera Share post states that it is an in-house recording, which I assume to be from an individual concertgoer. I would be most interested to learn how they captured the sound so well.
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Any rips of the recent Eschenbach/Philly M8?
Barry
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Any rips of the recent Eschenbach/Philly M8?
Barry
I haven't seen any rips of the Philly M8, but there is a video of his Paris one from March 2008.