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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Leo K on December 26, 2008, 07:40:11 AM
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Hey! This MTT DLVdE/SFSO is blowing me away! It is ravishing!!! On my 4th listen...I'm so amazed by the timbre and phrasing by both singers, and the orchestra is a wonder, it's as good as MTT's M9...I'm just amazed at this performance! Hampson sounds fluid and powerful to my ear.
The performance is not dissapointing at all...it is so insightful I now have a better idea of Mahler's vision for this work, before this recording I wasn't a fan of the tenor/baritone combo, but if played with such beauty and careful execution, the orchestra and the two male singers can give a radically different view of this work, and for me this is a revelation...for instance, I can hear the spirit of Schubert's last dark song cycle, Winteriesse, in the mood of the singing. I hear the lonliness more than I do with a contralto, perhaps because I can identify with the baritone more than the contralto, and hence I feel closer to the work. The orchestra is absolutely astonding, full of nuance and detail. Only wish for a louder tam tam, thats my only complaint. The SACD layer is outstanding, and so is the CD layer...the best sounding DLVdE for my taste, even more refined than the excellant Sieghart. Bernstein's tenor/baritone account doesn't have the impact this performance does.
I am more impressed with MTT's Mahler cycle as time goes on with more listens...I gave away the M5, but I may have to rebuy it...I had to rebuy the MTT SFO M3 as well, but I found it real cheap.
Cheers!
Todd
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Boy; I don't know, I guess it's just me. I don't think that Hampson sounds particularly good at all. And for my taste, there simply isn't enough tam-tam during the funereal sounding, orchestral interlude in "der Abschied". Even the few loud strokes are way underplayed.
Barry
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I've listened to this again twice this week and still think it's great...it's easily my top DLvdE. I'm continually impressed by this recording.
Highlights:
--the sound of the SFSO
--both singers, they are very inspired! They soar!
--the first song blooms and rises to action like nothing I've heard before
--the second movement destroys me in it's wintery beauty
Quibbles:
--The last movement isn't always flowing, sometimes drags alittle
--the tam tam isn't loud enough
Despite my quibbles I continue to be blown away by Hampsons singing and he saves the last movement for me. I keep coming back.
--Todd
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I would like to share your enthusiasm for this, and some of the other MTT recordings. But, alas, I simply can't. Oh well.
B.
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I would like to share your enthusiasm for this, and some of the other MTT recordings. But, alas, I simply can't. Oh well.
B.
At least we agree on the Kubelik live one on Audite!
:D
--Todd
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Indeed. The Audite one is great. I just feel that tenor/baritone works for "DLvdE" except for maybe the Bernstein/VPO one. Hampson sounds a tad "over the hill" to me, and MTT's tenor was nothing much to write home about. I'm afraid I'm not keeping a single item from the MTT/SFSO cycle, except for the earliest item of all: Das Klagende Lied.
I like MTT's earlier LSO M7 more than his SFSO one. It's even better recorded. I also prefer MTT's earlier LSO M3, even though it's not nearly as well recorded as the SFSO one. It has Janet Baker, and she sounds pretty darn good even though it was late in her career.
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Indeed. The Audite one is great. I just feel that tenor/baritone works for "DLvdE" except for maybe the Bernstein/VPO one.
Of course, among tenor/baritone versions, the Bernstein/VPO is a classic, but I think that Dickie/Fischer Dieskau/Philharmonia O/Kletzki (EMI) is even better, because better and fresher is Fischer Dieskau's voice.
Luca
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I'm with Luca on this one: for tenor/baritone may fave remains Kletzki for the singing. Hampson with MTT really is just plain bad, and I resent the use of Das Lied as a vehicle for aging, over-the-hill artists (remember Jon Vickers for Davis? Yech!). I think there are some fine recordings in the MTT cycle: 2, 4, and 9 especially, but it's been very inconsistent both interpretively and sonically. The saddest thing is MTT's manneristic habit of imposing "espressive" ritards at the ends of phrases--it quickly becomes predictable.
Best,
Dave H
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I really liked the Cleveland (Welser-Most) Kaufmann-Maltman Das Lied from last year, but it may have been a broadcast, not a commercial release. Anybody else heard it?? The two singers are a wonderful casting choice. They are very different in voice and character and complement each other beautifully. I haven't heard the Tilson Thomas recording, but I wouldn't hold it against him -- it's so easy to screw up Das Lied von der Erde! On the other hand, the truth is I've had enough Michael Tilson Thomas to last me for a while after the 6th and the 8th (plus I've heard him live lately, and a few times).
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Indeed. The Audite one is great. I just feel that tenor/baritone works for "DLvdE" except for maybe the Bernstein/VPO one.
Of course, among tenor/baritone versions, the Bernstein/VPO is a classic, but I think that Dickie/Fischer Dieskau/Philharmonia O/Kletzki (EMI) is even better, because better and fresher is Fischer Dieskau's voice.
Luca
I will definitely have to hear that Kletzki recording. Thanks for the heads up.
And in regards to Hampson, I love the timber of his voice, different strokes for different folks I guess!
--Todd
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Indeed. The Audite one is great. I just feel that tenor/baritone works for "DLvdE" except for maybe the Bernstein/VPO one.
Of course, among tenor/baritone versions, the Bernstein/VPO is a classic, but I think that Dickie/Fischer Dieskau/Philharmonia O/Kletzki (EMI) is even better, because better and fresher is Fischer Dieskau's voice.
Luca
I will definitely have to hear that Kletzki recording. Thanks for the heads up.
And in regards to Hampson, I love the timber of his voice, different strokes for different folks I guess!
--Todd
Oh, yes, the Kleziki could be an opium 8) :o :(.
John,
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...Hampson with MTT really is just plain bad, and I resent the use of Das Lied as a vehicle for aging, over-the-hill artists...
Best,
Dave H
I'm not sure how accurate it is to say the he was matched to this recording as a vehicle for an aging, over-the hill artist. I don't particularly care for Hampson on this specific recording either, but very much like his previous two efforts at DLvdE (Rattle, Haitink/Mahlerfest). So it's not as if he is coming to this piece of music late in his career. Let's face it, Hampson has always sung a lot of Mahler works. He's just done it better on his previous efforts.
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Scott,
I've seen Hampson a couple of times with the SFSO, and I honestly don't think that, "aging, over-the-hill" is terribly inaccurate in a relative, musical sense. In other words, I agree with Dave!
Barry
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For me, Hampson's singing on this DLvdE is truely breathtaking and glorious...but thats just me I guess :-[ :'(
On the other hand, I'm just glad this recording exists...I have been enjoying the whole SFSO cycle. It is amazing how we each hear so differently.
;)
--Todd
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...Hampson with MTT really is just plain bad, and I resent the use of Das Lied as a vehicle for aging, over-the-hill artists...
Best,
Dave H
I'm not sure how accurate it is to say the he was matched to this recording as a vehicle for an aging, over-the hill artist. I don't particularly care for Hampson on this specific recording either, but very much like his previous two efforts at DLvdE (Rattle, Haitink/Mahlerfest). So it's not as if he is coming to this piece of music late in his career. Let's face it, Hampson has always sung a lot of Mahler works. He's just done it better on his previous efforts.
Does anyone have a CDR or download link to the Haitink/Mahlerfest DLvdE? I would love to hear that one.
--Todd
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Indeed, the Haitink RCO 1995 recording is terrific and Hampson is amazing. But I'm not sure that it's Hampson's "aging voice" that is the problem with the Tilson-Thomas recording. I've heard Hampson live last year. His voice was fine. It's his star-like attitude and lack of real commitment that is the problem. It feels more like he may have lost some of his heart more than his voice. Also Tilson Thomas is no Haitink. Again, for a more recent one I highly recommend seeking the Welser-Most Cleveland Kaufmann-Maltman recording from last year.
...Hampson with MTT really is just plain bad, and I resent the use of Das Lied as a vehicle for aging, over-the-hill artists...
Best,
Dave H
I'm not sure how accurate it is to say the he was matched to this recording as a vehicle for an aging, over-the hill artist. I don't particularly care for Hampson on this specific recording either, but very much like his previous two efforts at DLvdE (Rattle, Haitink/Mahlerfest). So it's not as if he is coming to this piece of music late in his career. Let's face it, Hampson has always sung a lot of Mahler works. He's just done it better on his previous efforts.
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Perception is everything. To my ears, Hampson sounds as though he's trying to compensate for a small amount of vocal degradation by over-interpreting everything; often times conjuring up phrasing and diction that sounds over-done, mannered, and too fussy. If anything, it sounds to me as though he's compensating by trying to put too much heart into everything.
By the way, one of my very best Mahler 3rds is a "pirate" of a live performance with Welser-Most/Cleveland. The mezzo wasn't great, but everything else was fabulous.
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Actually I agree with you about putting too much heart into it (another way of saying less heart, if you know what I mean). It's a fine point, but Hampson just seems to me to have become a diva later in his life. He is taking himself too seriously. When you compare his Mahler recordings with Bernstein for example to the later ones, like his Mahler commercial DVD, the latter (especially with the visuals and all the mannerisms) is such a turn off. Anyway, what I'm saying is that I kind of agree with you although I'm not sure it's about losing his voice technically (and over-compensating), but maybe that's part of it too.
By the way, also the Haitink Mahler 6 from that same 1995 Amsterdam Mahlerfest (or"feest", I guess -- in Dutch) is fantastic and one of my absolute favorite M6's.
Perception is everything. To my ears, Hampson sounds as though he's trying to compensate for a small amount of vocal degradation by over-interpreting everything; often times conjuring up phrasing and diction that sounds over-done, mannered, and too fussy. If anything, it sounds to me as though he's compensating by trying to put too much heart into everything.
By the way, one of my very best Mahler 3rds is a "pirate" of a live performance with Welser-Most/Cleveland. The mezzo wasn't great, but everything else was fabulous.
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YES! Fantastic! Really really long, right? I LOVED it. Gotta listen to it again. Who was the singer (I don't remember)??
By the way, one of my very best Mahler 3rds is a "pirate" of a live performance with Welser-Most/Cleveland. The mezzo wasn't great, but everything else was fabulous.
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"Really really long, right?"
Nope. I don't like really long Mahler 3rds; the piece is long enough as it is. The inner movements just end up dieing, and the narrative of the symphony loses its continuity. Well, for me, anyway. If anything, W-M. is a bit on the zippy side. The last movement wasn't much more than 22 or 23 minutes. Cleveland provide incredible brass in the long chorale near the end of the piece.
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I've found it. I'm not sure if that's the one you're talking about. It's 1'38". It's with Yvonne Naef and it's from the Proms of 2005. Now here's the thing: My impression at the time (from what I remembered) was that it was slow and long, yet very powerful and very effective. I was very impressed. It seemed unique and weighty. And I immediately remembered it when you brought it up. But at 1'38" it's pretty standard for this symphony, so I'm not sure why I had the "long" impression. I'll listen to it again and if I feel have something halfway decent to say, I'll be happy to share it.
"Really really long, right?"
Nope. I don't like really long Mahler 3rds; the piece is long enough as it is. The inner movements just end up dieing, and the narrative of the symphony loses its continuity. Well, for me, anyway. If anything, W-M. is a bit on the zippy side. The last movement wasn't much more than 22 or 23 minutes. Cleveland provide incredible brass in the long chorale near the end of the piece.
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Scott,
I've seen Hampson a couple of times with the SFSO, and I honestly don't think that, "aging, over-the-hill" is terribly inaccurate in a relative, musical sense. In other words, I agree with Dave!
Barry
I think that you're reinforcing my point in your two posts. Although I agree that Hampson has seen his better days, he has been singing Mahler (and DLvdE) for many years. As such, it is more likely that MTT chose Hampson because of his history of success as opposed to being an aging star vehicle. Put another way, my point was simply that this is not the case an aging opera star that has suddenly taken an interest in Mahler because he cannot hack the big stage roles anymore (or something along those lines).
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I wanna hear this one......
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This recording is still my favorite DLvdE :) The voices are simply outstanding and I haven't heard any better in my many, many recordings of this work. And the orchestra is well captured. The recording is mastered with warmth and detail.
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Nice to hear Todd....my pal likes this version a lot also. My go-to at the moment is the Minnesota/Oue which I really like, but I've been meaning to hear this one. My interest was piqued last night when I heard MTT's M2 for teh first time in a long while - i really really dug it