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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: john haueisen on March 06, 2009, 06:25:47 PM
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First a reminder that "Going Against Fate" is the package pairing Zinman's M6 with a DVD of the recording of M6.
For me, this is one of the best "pairings" I've ever seen because there is no excess--they truly complement each other. Especially for those less familiar with M6, the DVD will help them see the mechanics behind a performance. I found very illuminating the "hammerschlag practice," where percussionists and sound engineers conferred, trying out nearly a dozen variations on the sound for the hammerblows.
In a similar vein, Zinman tried to describe the effect he desired for the tuba and orchestra in the final movement as "more Fafner-like." However the Tonhalle Zurich musicians were all so young that few had had enough experience with Richard Wagner to appreciate what Zinman was requesting: a menacing, ominous sound, like the twisting of a giant dragon's tail.
I remember that others have liked the Zinman M6 SACD.
Has anyone else yet seen the "Going Against Fate" cd/dvd set?
--John H
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Did you order it through Amazon? I think I'm going to bite the bullet, and just order it. I have long personal history with M6, and just have to own this.
Barry
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I ordered one off of Amazon. I think it was reported as used, but it came wrapped when I received the set in today's mail.
All movements fit on one disc. I listened to part of the CD with the computer's speaker and not with a great deal of attention. I already own the "Super Audio" issue recording, and my impression is that the CD is heavier in the lows.
Curiously, the timings as reported by Media Player for the single CD (23:43, 14:03, 13:58, 29:42) differ from what Media Player reports for the SACD (23:49, 14:10, 14:00, 29:49), and neither agree with what is printed on both the SACD cover and in the DVD insert (23:15, 14:04, 13:56, 29:49).
I'm looking forward to viewing the DVD soon, but I've got child's birthday in the house tonight, so I'll add more later.
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(I'm replying to my own posting: is that legal?)
I just watched the DVD. It is engaging and interesting. The occasional panoramic videography is grand yet subdued. I didn't find interviews or expositions overly long. Some may quibble with the historical details or assertions: I'm not qualified to do so. There are lots of details here and there about the mechanics of the performance - about where to put the unseen cowbells, experiments to get the hammer blows right, accents and bowings in strings, horns being too loud, etc.
However, while ostensibly about the Sixth, it is really as much or more about the Tonhalle, its members, and its conductor. As a member of a community orchestra (Borodin 2 tomorrow night), I was impressed by the spirit, the fresh approach, and positive attitudes. The concert mistress speaks to the conductor by his first name: no fear but teamwork throughout the ranks. Eyes are upon conductor, music, and colleagues in equal parts. The musicians are experiencing the music, not automatons grinding it out. A the recording session playbacks it looked like half the orchestra was in the booth to evaluate the takes. During the live performance there are smiles exchanged (and the camera caught some sheepish winces, too). After the final pluck, when Zinman drops his arms, the audience erupts, and so too the smiles and claps in the orchestra.
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I ordered one off of Amazon. I think it was reported as used, but it came wrapped when I received the set in today's mail.
All movements fit on one disc. I listened to part of the CD with the computer's speaker and not with a great deal of attention. I already own the "Super Audio" issue recording, and my impression is that the CD is heavier in the lows.
Curiously, the timings as reported by Media Player for the single CD (23:43, 14:03, 13:58, 29:42) differ from what Media Player reports for the SACD (23:49, 14:10, 14:00, 29:49), and neither agree with what is printed on both the SACD cover and in the DVD insert (23:15, 14:04, 13:56, 29:49).
I'm looking forward to viewing the DVD soon, but I've got child's birthday in the house tonight, so I'll add more later.
Actually, the timing of I. on the SACD cover is wrong; its correct duration is something like 23:45.
So, the CD included in the DVD set is nothing but the regular CD version of the SACD??
My confession - I have come to love Zinman's recording very much. I agree that this is the BEST M6th with A-S order and Zinman's argument, however weak it might be on musical grounds, makes a perfect sense. But then it's because he conducts the Andante as if it is the Scherzo and the Scherzo as if it is the Andante, which only strengthens the all the (musical) justifications for the S-A order. Interestingly and not surprisingly, I tried to switch the inner movts back to the S-A order but for me it didn't work. Either way, Zinman's attention to details and his almost chamber music like treatment work remarkably well in this piece, something I have never encountered elsewhere. It won't replace my favorite recordings, e.g., Levi, Bernstein I., Tennstedt, but will surely take a very special place in my collection.
John,
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Thanks Russ and John, for thought-provoking comments on this set. Russ was right in pointing out that the dvd is more about Zinman and Zurich than M6. It's Z&Z seen through the template of M6, but it also encourages us to look deeper into M6.
Barry asked, did you get it from Amazon?
Yes, like Russ, I got it from one of Amazon's alternate sellers.
Can anyone venture an opinion as to why Amazon does not offer this item except through secondary sellers? Amazon did the same thing with the recent dvd of Abbado's M3 (the one where youtube showed a "false entry" by Anna Larsson).
--John H
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The trailer for this film can be viewed on the film's website, where there's some other good stuff:
http://www.goingagainstfate.com/en/index.php
The DVD is listed on CD Universe, but it's on back order. (They're selling it for $22.) Similarly, it's a "special order" item on ArchivMusic. A search on MDT's website turned up nothing. It does seem to be available on Amazon.de for 22 euros.
I'm guessing that the DVD hasn't been 'officially' released here in the US or even in England; it only seems to be available in Germany (from the limited searching I've done). (Certainly Barry would have seen it on an official Sony/BMG release sheet if it's coming out here in the next month; otherwise, he wouldn't be ordering it for himself.) I'm hoping it's just a matter of time before it gets wider distribution (perhaps as a tie-in for the SACD release of the M6 here and in England later this year).
I can hardly wait, though, so I might have to order from one of those 'independent' Amazon resellers....
Russell
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Initially my response was lukewarm but over the last few months I have come to fall in love with this recording. IMO, Zinman clearly demonstrates that the A-S order can work only if the conductor treats the A as the S and the S as the A. When he does this, you can see that the overall impact of the symphony is reduced because the Scherzo movt. gets slowed down with its dynamics softened, while the Andante merely gets sped up. Zinman knows this and hence would rather apply "chamber music like" touches in many places. The result is a new sort of Mahler Sixth which is thoughtful rather than impactful, rational rather than emotional, orderly rather than sprawling. But it is a unique music making and sheds a new light on this complex masterpiece.
I also very much like the sonics which emphasizes the low end of the frequency spectrum.
My fingers are crossed about the remaining cycle - M7th, M8th, M9th, and possibly DLVDE.
John,
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I really appreciate all your toughts on this recordings and DVD...I shall order very soon.
John K...great to hear you have warmed to this recording, I think you have described what I love about it very well!
Zinman's is a very interesting cycle...I really look forward to the rest.
--Todd
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"Can anyone venture an opinion as to why Amazon does not offer this item except through secondary sellers?
I'm not sure how this pipeline is working, as it isn't yet available through U.S. Sony/BMG. Somebody must have brought a bunch of copies into the country as "special imports".
Barry
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So, let me make my question clear:
DOES THE CD CONTAINED IN THE DVD SET ORIGINATE FROM THE SAME RECORDING AS THE HYBRID SACD?
PL somebody clarify this for me. ???
Thanks.
John,
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So, let me make my question clear:
DOES THE CD CONTAINED IN THE DVD SET ORIGINATE FROM THE SAME RECORDING AS THE HYBRID SACD?
PL somebody clarify this for me. ???
Thanks.
John,
So, nobody including those who already bought the DVD knows the answer?? :-\ :-[
John,
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John,
I thought you had the CD/SACD already? I couldn't imagine it being a different recording or mix from the regular release?
--Todd
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John,
I thought you had the CD/SACD already? I couldn't imagine it being a different recording or mix from the regular release?
--Todd
I'd assume so, but it would be better if the CD came from another recording session. That's just for me, BTW ;).
John,
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John,
The timings and the dates of recording are identical to what I read on the cover of my SACD.
So, we can conclude both are from the same recording.
Thanks ;)
John,
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movement I 23.15 min
m 2 14.04
m 3 13.56
m 4 29.49
Total time: 81.14
Recorded: 14-16 May 2007
According to my calculation, the total time represented by the timings for the movements comes to 81:04. Wonder where the other ten seconds are. Between the tracks? I have noticed this sort of discrepancy on other CD covers.
. & '
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Like I said, the correct timing for I. is 23'45", NOT 23'15". But that adds 30 sec, NOT 10 sec. as you mentioned ???
John,
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Isn't the SACD on two discs ?
I wonder how they managed to squeeze the same performance onto one CD.
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My understanding is they CAN make cd's longer than 80 minutes. The problem is that many players - mostly earlier models - don't track beyond 80 minutes.
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Now I have heard the CD and seen the DVD once and found them both quite interesting. The CD sound is full and resonant, I thought, with plenty of bass. The DVD is no doubt a good plug for the Tonhalle Orchester and should make Baltimore wonder how they let Zinman go. (Did they let him go, or did they dump him?)
I regret seeing Zinman follow outdated Mahler mythology in his analysis. I thought everyone knew that Alma's creative memory has to be approached with caution. A little work with dates would have shown Zinman that Mahler's daughters playing in the sand could not possibly have been the source of the passage so designated (by Alma). And now we know that Alma herself is the source of the description of her as the most beautiful woman in Vienna. Doesn't anyone look at a photo of her? And Zinman's saying that Mahler's heart valvular deficiency was the cause of his death is particularly disappointing. By now he should know better.
If conductors are too busy with preparations, rehearsals, and touring to do their own research on the composers--which, no doubt, is the case--they ought to assign someone to keep them up to date. Say, the triangle player. ;D
An extra treat for those who watch the credits at the end is Zinman singing Tom Lehrer's "Alma"--all of it! Remember the lines
"You should have a statue in bronze
For bagging Gustav and Walter and Franz."
. & '
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I finally received and watched my copy. I think that Zinman is a fabulous conductor - so musical! Unfortunately, I suppose, the DVD plays too much like an info-mercial for the Tonnhalle Zurich. That said, it's quite evident that they're a truly great orchestra in their current incarnation. Also, the building itself is just gorgeous to like at. I think that all the insights into Mahler's percussion writing - tons of it in the 6th symphony! - is quite fascinating. I like the tuba player; he's quite a character.
Of course, Zinman falls in line with the usual spiel about how M6 is prophetic in regards to Mahler's personal problems. That was the Alma explanation. I personally believe that the 6th had almost nothing to do with Mahler's future biography, and that the "hero" or main protagonist wasn't even himself. I think that it was prophetic of the coming European disasters - disasters on a global scale. I believe that there's even some circumstantial evidence to support such a notion, such as Mahler's "thrice homeless" comment. Regardless, Zinman truly knows the work, and speaks very eloquently about it. I really enjoyed this, and would strongly recommend it for its insights into Mahler's percussion issues alone (among other things).
Barry
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Barry--
When you say of M6, "I think that it was prophetic of the coming European disasters - disasters on a global scale," you are apparently in agreement with Tony Duggan, who says in his analysis of M6,
"It has always seemed to me appropriate that the work’s 1906 premiere took place in Essen, the cradle of German heavy industry. All those driving, relentless, militaristic rhythms, mechanistic percussion and harsh-edged contrasts that permeate so much of this work have always seemed, to me, to share kinship with the place where the work was first heard. Here were the foundries and factories that put the iron in The Iron Chancellor and built the guns that would spill the blood in his "blood and iron" when fired in World War One, the cultural pre-echo of whose cataclysm eight years later the work seems partly to illustrate. A case of Mahler the sensitive showing himself in tune with his times, I think. So I believe this symphony is, first and foremost, a twentieth century work. Perhaps the first twentieth century symphony. It breathes as much the same air as Krupp as it does Freud, and its concerns are those of our time because so much of our time was formed in the furnaces of Essen as in the consulting rooms of Vienna."
Listened to with that in mind, M6 becomes a somewhat different symphony--and perhaps clearer.
Very interesting.
. & '
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So, what is their next installment in the cycle? M7th? And when is it scheduled to be released?
John,