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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: oscar on August 30, 2009, 06:12:42 PM
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I am interested to know your opinion and reccomendations of the Mahler recordings conducted by Sir Georg Solti.
Both the Chicago S.O. and the ones made in London,
cheers,
Oscar.
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Solti is not on my first group considering Mahler but I like him anyway.
I prefer his first recordings with the CSO ie. the 5-6-7.
He is not so musical as Haitink and Chailly and Abbado, Karajan etc. ( Culshaw told that the recording sessions of Mahler symphonies make hiCulshaw- psysically sick). Also not genuine neurotic as Bernstein or Tennstedt. He used the music as a vehicle for virtuso performances a kind of concertos for orchestra.
Anyway his contribution to Mahler renaisance is precious.
I want your opinions of his second M5 with CSO in 1990. This was recorded live in Musikverein in Vienna and I beleive to be of much interest.
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Of the Solti-led Mahler recordings, I like
M1/LSO ***
M2/LSO ***
M4/RCO ***
M5/CSO ***
M8/CSO **1/2
M9/LSO ***
I don't care much for the other entries.
John,
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I really love the LSO M2, particularly the singing. In my opinion Harper and Watts have not been bettered.
The LSO M1 and M9 are also favourites, and I particularly like Der Abschied in DLvdE with Yvonne Minton. There is somethng about the ending of the orchestral interlude that sounds just right to me in this recording. Is it the tam tam ?
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I really love the LSO M2, particularly the singing. In my opinion Harper and Watts have not been bettered.
The LSO M1 and M9 are also favourites, and I particularly like Der Abschied in DLvdE with Yvonne Minton. There is somethng about the ending of the orchestral interlude that sounds just right to me in this recording. Is it the tam tam ?
Question:
Is there an organ in the Solti/LSO recording?
I can't hear it and even if there is organ it must be inaudible.
To my ears it sounds as though the organ is replaced by low strings. I mean, they tried to make up for the organ by putting microphones closely to the low strings.
Either way, this recording sounds terrific on my equipment. Solti emphasizes colors and balances of individual instruments, rather than creating homogenized sound. I like this approach very much in M2.
John,
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the lso m2 and cso m5 (first) are my favorites of solti's mahler.
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I've never heard a note of Solti doing Mahler - not sure I want to, either.......
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I've never heard a note of Solti doing Mahler - not sure I want to, either.......
Your not missing much! :o ;)
However, his LSO M9 is pretty darn good.
--Todd
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Solti was the conductor whose version of the 2nd was what got me into that symphony. His version(s) (particularly the first movement) is fast and intense and it really grabbed me.
At this point, the only Soltis I have on CD are nos. 1 and 2 with the LSO, a 2-disc set.
Posted by John Kim: Is there an organ in the Solti/LSO recording?
I cannot hear one either. But I find the organ difficult to discern in many recordings of M2. With such a huge orchestra and chorus, it sometimes gets lost in the big sound of "WHOOM" from all the forces employed. It was a long time before I even knew there was supposed to be an organ in the finale.
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Damfino,
I agree it's difficult for the organ to come through the big climax. Still, I doubt that organ was even included in the Solti/LSO recording. I don't hear it in Abbado's two DG M2s either and I don't think it was included in the recordings.
Let's not forget Solti's excellent M4th with RCO and Sylvia Stahlman who had a perfect voice to deliver Mahler's innocent and sentimental view of the heaven.
John,
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I noticed the Solti/LSO M2 is now available on Decca's Original-Bit series.
My copy is from the first reincarnation of the recording, so I wonder how the latest remastered one sound?
Could anyone comment?
Thanks.
John,
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Surely no one would dare perform the 'Resurrection' without an organ? The Solti version was recorded in London's Kingsway Hall, which had a J. J. Binns instrument (installed in 1912) and the two Abbado versions were taped in Chicago's Medinah Temple (which also has an organ) and the Lucerne concert hall (ditto).
The late lamented Kingsway Hall, which I used to walk past every day on my way to Fleet Street, was very popular with musicians and recording companies. Sadly the building was torn down in 1996 and replaced by a hotel. One of the hall's endearing characteristics was the 'Kingsway rumble' caused by the Undergorund trains on the Piccadilly Line below.
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Surely no one would dare perform the 'Resurrection' without an organ? The Solti version was recorded in London's Kingsway Hall, which had a J. J. Binns instrument (installed in 1912) and the two Abbado versions were taped in Chicago's Medinah Temple (which also has an organ) and the Lucerne concert hall (ditto).
Thanks for the info. about the Kingsway Hall. So, the Solti recording MUST HAVE THE ORGAN in it! >:(
Perhaps the newly remastered version may reveal the sound of the organ??
If anybody heard the Original-Bit CD, could you comment on the organ?
BTW, I meant Abbado's SECOND Resurrection recording with VPO, NOT the Lucern Festival Orch. which does have organ.
Thanks.
John,
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The Solti/LSO 'Resurrection' is fine until the end, when the engineers intervene and perspectives go awry. That's much more of an issue for me than a backwardly recorded organ. Not even the presence of Harper and Watts can save this one. IMO.
Harper always had a lovely voice. In the 1980s she recorded Strauss's Four Last Songs and several of his orchestral songs under the late Richard Hickox. Some of the best Strauss singing I've ever heard, and that from someone at the end of her singing career.
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The earlier LSO ones of M1, M2, and M9 are preferable to the later Chicago ones. John Kim likes Solti's earlier Concertgebouw M4 very much. Personally, I don't care for any of his M5 recordings, and he was notoriously awful with M3. The CSO M6 and M7 are decent. That said, the timpanist can't play his opening flourish at the start of the finale of M7, and it's all pretty much downhill from there. The notes are all there, but it's like somebody who puts sentences together in a way that's totally incoherent. The M8 is still famous today, although it's certainly not my personal favorite.
By the way, the worst Mahler concert I've every heard/seen was an M5 with Solti and the CSO, on tour at Davies Hall. Just plain awful!
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Surely no one would dare perform the 'Resurrection' without an organ? The Solti version was recorded in London's Kingsway Hall, which had a J. J. Binns instrument (installed in 1912) and the two Abbado versions were taped in Chicago's Medinah Temple (which also has an organ) and the Lucerne concert hall (ditto).
Thanks for the info. about the Kingsway Hall. So, the Solti recording MUST HAVE THE ORGAN in it! >:(
Perhaps the newly remastered version may reveal the sound of the organ??
If anybody heard the Original-Bit CD, could you comment on the organ?
BTW, I meant Abbado's SECOND Resurrection recording with VPO, NOT the Lucern Festival Orch. which does have organ.
Thanks.
John,
Hmm, a colleague has just listened to the Solti/LSO M2 (original CD release) and admits he can't hear the organ either. Someone who knew the Kingsway Hall very well says the organ was serviceable in 1966 but was in need of an overhaul.
That said, David Hurwitz detects the organ in the remastered Originals release.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=171314
Intriguing....
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It doesn't have much organ, but it's a far more interesting and energetic performance than his Chicago remake. His CSO remake had god-awful vocalists, and ugly early digital era sound quality.
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As far as I'm concerned, Mahler by Solti was fine up to, and including the Eighth, even with the problems that recording has. After the Eighth, it was all downhill from there.
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Agreed!
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By the way, the worst Mahler concert I've every heard/seen was an M5 with Solti and the CSO, on tour at Davies Hall. Just plain awful!
Hi Barry - I remember Solti and the CSO doing M5 at War Memorial in the early 70's - did they come back after Davies was built, in the 80's? The performance I heard was the best orchestral playing I'd ever heard - but it was early in my concert going career. At that time I had heard only a few orchestas - the SFS, of course, the Cleveland Orchestra (unfortunately Szell had already passed away and they were touring with Susskind), the BRSO with Kubelik and a few more provincial orchestras. It was also the first Mahler I heard live but I though it was terrific.
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The Solti/CSO M5 performance was in Davies Hall sometime in the latter 80's or early 90's, and it was THE WORST orchestral performance of anything I've ever heard in which the vast majority of the notes were still in the right place at the right time. The entire orchestra sounded as though it were at war with itself from beginning to end, and Solti kept his headed buried in the score for much of the time. There appeared to be zero connection between Solti and his players. I didn't even know that there had been a string section present until we reached the Adagietto - lo and behold: strings!
The timpanist sounded terrible; the cymbal player used about five different pairs of cymbals, and they all sounded like the wrong ones; Gordon Peters consistently underplayed the bass drum; the tam-tam was consistently underplayed; Dale Clevenger's dynamic range went from mezzoforte to ffff! (solo horn) - everything just sounded awful, except for the strings during the Adagietto. To make matters worse, they played some totally un-listenable modern monstrosity during the first half.