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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: afon on February 05, 2011, 02:54:46 PM
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This is more of a desperate scream than a question, but I really have no other place to vent. So I thought I might even get some help.
My dad loves Mahler. He LOVES it. He cries at the Adagietto from the 5th. He writes me long e-mails about the friday concerts that he attends back home in an Eastern Europe capital.
I am not an educated listener as he is (he plays the piano, I don't anymore, since childhood). But I really enjoy other romantic works. I love Verdi and Rahmaninov (sic!).
I tried to give it some time and went back to the symphonies. They still don't tickle me at all. I forced myself to sit through them, one at a time, a movement at a time and I still don't find anything exciting about them. They are maybe just OK.
What am I doing wrong? ??? I hear only music with no beginning and no end, taken in small parts it sounds fine, but when you put it together it just doesn't link into a full round piece. Waltzes and funeral marches blended together with interminable bland passages and then a bunch of "joking" here and there.
I feel like I am letting them down, both of them, this dude who is so acclaimed by all of you and my father too. People are ready to pay thousands for a box set and I can't stand it. Tons of paper and ink flow all over the world about his music and I just can't hear what others do.
What's wrong with me?
Thanks for reading my post.
a-fon
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It sounds like you're not doing anything wrong. It's absurd to think that EVERYBODY should love Mahler's music, any more than it's expected that everybody should be in love with Shakespeare's plays. It may simply be that Mahler is not for you, and that's OK. Don't fret over it. Conversely, I don't care the slightest bit for Verdi's works, except for his very last operas. Those differences make the world go round.
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Hi, I think that the older you get the easier it becomes to understand Mahler's Marvelous Music. Give yourself a chance, wash away the guilt. Several conductors like Reiner & von Karajan came to Mahler's music late in life too. Have you tried just listening to snippets, like say the Scherzo from the First Symphony, or a selection from the Third or the Fourth Symphony? Please do not torture yourself with Mahler's music, it's there to be enjoyed and if you don't enjoy it just move on.
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Hi afon,
Don't just give up yet. In the late 70's (when I was a very young man), I loved the Vienna classicists (Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert) and the 19 century romantics (Schumann, Brahms, etc), but the music of Mahler left me cold. Then I saw Ken Russel's movie "Mahler" (it's available on YouTube) and thougt that a lot of the background music was very good (only Mahler music was used). So, I went to the record shop and bought me a Mahler symphony (M5, BRSO/Kubelik) and listened to a full Mahler symphony for the 1st time. And the reaction was: WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP. Really shit. $15 in the bin; I'll never play these records again. Then som time passed and I really don't remember what happened (I think I attended a concert with a Mahler symphony), and, alas, in the beginning of the 80's I loved Mahler's music. And now, it's more like an obsession, lol. So my advice is, don't try to push it, go to a concert with one of his "easy" symphonies (like the 1st or the 4th); if the love for M's music comes, it comes (but it may take some time). But NEVER NEVER NEVER feel guilt because you don't like things that others like. Good luck to you.
Roffe
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Hi, I think that the older you get the easier it becomes to understand Mahler's Marvelous Music. Give yourself a chance, wash away the guilt. Several conductors like Reiner & von Karajan came to Mahler's music late in life too. Have you tried just listening to snippets, like say the Scherzo from the First Symphony, or a selection from the Third or the Fourth Symphony? Please do not torture yourself with Mahler's music, it's there to be enjoyed and if you don't enjoy it just move on.
Clarification: Reiner didn't come to Mahler late in life. He performed M7 and M2 (the latter, I think, without going to dig through his American concert programs) while music director in Cincinnati in the 1920's, but never performed these works again. We know of his Chicago M4 and DLvdE recordings, and it is documented that he studied the score of M1 while in Chicago, but decided not to perform it.
Wade
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Hi, I think that the older you get the easier it becomes to understand Mahler's Marvelous Music. Give yourself a chance, wash away the guilt. Several conductors like Reiner & von Karajan came to Mahler's music late in life too. Have you tried just listening to snippets, like say the Scherzo from the First Symphony, or a selection from the Third or the Fourth Symphony? Please do not torture yourself with Mahler's music, it's there to be enjoyed and if you don't enjoy it just move on.
Agreed. But I began enjoying Mahler's music at the age of 12!! :D ;).
The impact and shock I got upon listening to his Resurrection for the first time (Klemperer/PO/EMI) was so immense that I ran into my mom's room and exclaimed, "Mom, I just heard the greatest music on Earth!"
John,
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a-fon, I could have written your post back when I was exposed to Mahler in college in the late 70's. I felt exactly the same way. Some of the works are sooo long, and just when you think Mahler is on a good tragic sort of vibe, he brings in mocking laughing sounds. Mahler liked to have a lot going on at once. He called his use of several melodies at once polyphony. I thought it sounded like cacophony.
However, I eventually came to appreciate what Mahler was doing. Sounds that used to remind me of fingernails on a blackboard eventually made sense. Mahler is an acquired taste. And like many acquired tastes, he can become one of your favorites once his music clicks with you (if it does).
I would start with Symphony # 1. It has a sort of programme to it. The first movement is very pastoral and nature-like to me. I always imagine a meadow shrouded in mist, and then the sun burns it off and a beautiful day begins. I also like horn calls, and it features some great horn sections.
The other movements have a programme described by Mahler which you can follow or not. All in all, I think the First symphony will be a great intro to Mahler (but the last movement is rather long).
If you never do get into Mahler; don't sweat it. There are lots of composers for whom I do not care, either (mainly modern ones like Ives, Messiaen, Berg, and others).
Dave
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Thank you much to all who spent time and tried to help me come out of this. I came to the conclusion that I just need more time. And it really feels good to know that I am not the only one who feels the way I do and that in time this may change, Maybe I just need a different state of mind, maybe I just need to get older (I am 36 now, so do I need to be 50 to be called mature? maybe...). I strongly believe that (most) men never really mature. I can't imagine doing now things that I used to do only 10 years ago, so people really change with age and maybe my "ear" will change too.
Again thanks much and happy auditions, be it Mahler or not!
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A-fan,
If you're going to continue trying with Mahler, then I want to leave you with the same advice I give most everybody. Don't just tackle the symphonies alone. Be sure to listen to the various song cycles as well. AND, be certain to follow the text. That - almost more than anything else - will give you great insight into the symphonies themselves.
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Another advice to understand Mahler: read a detailed biography, read german and russian litterature, be receptive to nature, get older and wait.
I came to Mahler only two years ago and i'm not a teenager! I knew i would explore one day this work but i really thing that unconsciously i was not ready before and now i understant why according to the emotional shock it was.
i hope you can undertand me in spite of my difficulties to express in english!
Mathilde
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I completely agree with the statement about Mahler being an acquired taste... I've been trying to turn my friends onto him for the longest time, but when you force something, it won't happen. I had never even heard of him or his music until I went to a concert as a freshman in high school... now he is my favorite composer. So try going to a concert (because live music is a completely different experience) and give it space! Listen to the Songs of a Wayfarer. But don't feel pressured to like something or at least right away if it doesn't click. I personally cannot fully grasp some of Mahler's works yet, notably M8.
(Not sure about the whole maturity thing... but I guess I've always been old at heart. :) )
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I completely agree with the statement about Mahler being an acquired taste... I've been trying to turn my friends onto him for the longest time, but when you force something, it won't happen. I had never even heard of him or his music until I went to a concert as a freshman in high school... now he is my favorite composer. So try going to a concert (because live music is a completely different experience) and give it space! Listen to the Songs of a Wayfarer. But don't feel pressured to like something or at least right away if it doesn't click. I personally cannot fully grasp some of Mahler's works yet, notably M8.
(Not sure about the whole maturity thing... but I guess I've always been old at heart. :) )
But for me M1st, M2nd & M4th were instant taste!! :o :D
However, I admit the other symphonies took months, if not years, to get my teeth into. ;)
What's interesting is that once I got familiar with one or two of the more 'difficult' pieces it didn't take all that long to digest the rest.
Thus, my order was something like,
M1 -> M4 -> M2 -> M8 -> M5 -> M3 -> M6 -> M7 -> M9 -> DLVDE -> M10
John,
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As others have stated, you can't force yourself to like it. If you don't enjoy it, just give it a rest.
I became a Mahler enthusiast when I was 14. I saw M1 on a PBS broadcast, and immediately took to the slow movement's irony. I was hooked and that was over 40 years ago.
Follow your heart and listen to the music you enjoy. Here's my approach: No judgement is ever final. You can't force yourself to like something, but if you keep an open mind, one day it might click. Schoenberg's "Pelleas und Melisande" made no sense to me until after I stopped trying to understand it. On a whim, I put it on one day when I was doing the dishes, and everything fell into place.
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While I have loved Mahler most of my life, when young it was the songs that first caught my imagination. And the 4th Symphony with its exquisite song finale was the first of the symphonies to speak to me. So I agree with the comment about listening to the songs. I would say Songs of a Wayfarer and the Rükert songs, maybe some of Knaben Wunderhorn songs, but most important finding some way of approaching Das Lied von der Erde. Also, as the previous poster suggested follow the texts for a couple of times, then maybe listening to the interplay of voice and instruments even in the simplest songs.
Good luck, If you find a piece you like, revisit it now and again.
Best,
Tom in Vermont
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For conductors who came to Mahler late in life--we might also remember Barbirolli.
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Back to the original issue of understanding Mahler. First, I want to congratulate you for trying to enjoy it, and for stating so very well what you heard in the music. I have heard friends say the same about it, wondering how I and others can be so devoted to the music, when many others see only "pretty notes, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere."
At first, I tried to tell people to listen closer, and really pay attention. But for most folks, that doesn't work either.
Right now, my best recommendation would be to play something like Mahler's first symphony, over and over in the background, while you work on some other project--things like cleaning house, polishing the car, or anything that will take an hour or so.
Don't expect immediate results. But if you do keep that music in the background, your mind may just eventually assimilate it, put it all together and make sense of it. The reward is that you will see the world and Mahler's music in a new way, with more feeling than you ever imagined music could generate. This may sound a little crazy, but your dad might agree: you will feel that you have been "touched by the gods" in being able to enjoy such a supreme pleasure that Mahler's music provides.
Good Luck (and don't rush it--just let it happen if it will),
--John Haueisen
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Friends of mine ALWAYS played M1 to their little daughter, when she was taking her afternoon nap. After she learned to say some words, she used to remind them by saying "tic" (for music), if they had forgot to put on M1. So, this little 0.5 to 1.5 year old girl got addicted to listen to M1 to her afternoon nap.
Roffe
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What a great anecdote about a child--Thanks Roffe!
Does anyone else have memories of kids listening to Mahler?
Does anyone have further suggestions (I know it may not be possible) as to how listeners can "get" Mahler--what might help people "understand" or appreciate the music?
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I'm not sure how well somebody can nap to the 4th movement of M1! ;) I nearly fell out of my seat the first time I heard it...
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I can nap while listening to M. I think you listen in different ways when you are awake or asleep. Years ago I used to nap on Sunday afternoons playing Tchaikowsky's "The Nutcracker" in the background. When the music was finished, so was my nap. It almost never failed; I fell asleep in the beginning and woke up when the CD player got silent. Trying to nap without music almost always failed.
Now I can nap to Mahler's music. I haven't tried with M2, M3, or dLvdE, only the iinstrumental symphonies and the "pastoral" M3.
Roffe
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This topic, learning to understand Mahler, brings up the question, "What would be a good book(s) that might possibly help someone with Mahler's music?"
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For starters, I would recommend David Hurwitz's book, "The Mahler Symphonies: an Owner's Manual," which thoughtfully and helpfully includes a CD to help identify specifically the passages described.
There's also a DVD, Little Drummer Boy: Essay on Mahler by Leonard Bernstein, which helps show what Mahler was talking about, (and why people like Bernstein found his music so moving).
--John Haueisen
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Just found this thread - wondering if there is any progress....?
Here is my (quick) story: I am a 20th century fanatic first and foremost - romanticism was never my bag. I bought M5 (lenny DG), M6 (Boulez), and M7 (Boulez) from BMG years ago. Hated it...hated it...hated it..hated it. Longwinded...boring...schmaltzy....WAY too much hype. It actually pissed me off that GM was so highly regarded - it became a bad attitude on my part and i actually wanted to hate this music. Anyway, fast forward a bit - I somehow fell in love with Prokofiev Symphony No. 5. The "romantic" qualities somehow spoke to me and I found myself deciding to try the three Mahler recordings i still owned. One summer night with headphones I tossed in M5 and listened to it from soup-to-nuts. I couldn't believe it....I actually liked it. No, I loved it. How could this be? I followed suit with M6 and M7 - same thing. I then started to collect M5's - I was almost addicted to that piece. I read a ton of reviews at Amazon, etc. fast forward again - - - I eventually made my way through the entire symphonies, and became obsessed like the rest of the freaks here ;)
Dare I say that gun to my head - GM is now my favorite. Surpassing Ives, Stravinsky, Bartok, Messiaen, Ravel, Carter, Webern, Debussy, Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Schoenberg, Bach, Copland, etc by an inch or so.
I am obsessed with his music and I have no apologies saying that he wrote the greatest set of symphonies in the HISTORY of music. He actually spoiled music for me - I basically cant listen to any symphonies that came before him, maybe with the exception of Beethoven 3 and 9. Everything else seems inferior at this point. Sorry, but that is the way it is. In order for music to get on equal par with Mahler for my ears, I have to look forward, not backwards.
Don't give up man! Don't! Try, try, try and try again.
Here is my suggestion:
1) Get modern versions of the symphonies in stunning sound
2) Listen to the following movements for an entire week - every day - even if it is painful:
M1 - 4th mvt
M2 - 5th mvt
M3 - 1st and 6th mvt
M5 - 1st mvt, 4th mvt
M6 - Andante
M7 - 1st mvt
Listen until you can recognize the melodies - possibly sing along. Do it and dont give up. Once the bug bites, the rest is history and you better start saving your coin because Mahler is an expensive hobby!
Mahler forever!!!!!!!!!!!