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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: akiralx on November 29, 2015, 10:04:51 PM

Title: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: akiralx on November 29, 2015, 10:04:51 PM: Anyone heard this Ondine recording yet?
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on November 30, 2015, 09:38:57 AM: I've been checking Spotify each week to see if they add it. So far, no.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: cilea on December 02, 2015, 07:57:33 AM: Quote from: barry guerrero on November 30, 2015, 09:38:57 AM
I've been checking Spotify each week to see if they add it. So far, no.

I think Ondine has a delay of six months before its newer staff will appear on Spotify.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: umbernisitani on December 04, 2015, 02:46:36 PM: Naxos Music Library has it, if you can access it.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on December 07, 2015, 01:23:06 AM: https://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/catalogue/item.asp?cid=ODE1264-5

This seems to be a very well executed, fairly well conducted and outstandingly recorded performance. That said . . . am I wrong, or are there a whole bunch of cymbal crashes left out near the very end? There's a boat load of them (I've played the part in concert), but maybe their just very, VERY subdued. Strange. Otherwise, the ending is just fine.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: brunumb on February 07, 2016, 02:11:30 AM: Leslie Wright gave it a very favourable review at MusicWeb International.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Feb/Mahler_sy1_ODE12645.htm

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81NleTbLBXL._SX522_PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: AZContrabassoon on February 07, 2016, 03:13:53 AM: Quote from: barry guerrero on December 07, 2015, 01:23:06 AM
https://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/catalogue/item.asp?cid=ODE1264-5

...am I wrong, or are there a whole bunch of cymbal crashes left out near the very end?

Or is it conductor tampering and revising the score? I haven't heard it yet, not sure if I will get it. Lintu conducted here several years ago and made a profound impression. I wonder if this is the start of another (unneeded) cycle?
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 07, 2016, 09:00:36 AM: . . . " another (unneeded) cycle?"

Never say that - there's no such thing as an 'unneeded' Mahler cycle. New cycles should get released every week of the year, as I love 'em all (except Solti and MTT).
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: AZContrabassoon on February 07, 2016, 06:12:27 PM: Yes, I know the feeling. I have 15 or so complete sets, but still buy more when available. Ridiculous. And many, many recordings not in sets. It's just that there are so many composers whose music is neglected and could really benefit from new recordings, or any recordings!

MTT I agree with - leaves me cold. But Solti? It's worth having just for the breathtaking playing of the Chicago Symphony.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 07, 2016, 07:12:16 PM: "breathtaking playing of the Chicago Symphony"

You mean all the large breaths the CSO brass players had to take to maintain all those endless fortissimos? ;)

Yes, they had incredibly loud and tight sounding trumpets and trombones, but those Geyer horns turned hard and 'bracky' sounding while trying to keep up - almost like hearing more trombones. I never thought their woodwinds were all that great - certainly no real competition with Cleveland, Boston or N.Y. And the CSO percussion - with the exception of timpani (which were always too loud under Abbado and Levine) - never bothered too keep up with all that noise from the brass. I always got the impression that Solti didn't particularly like percussion.

For me, the Solti M8 is THE most overrated Mahler recording of all time. "Overrated" doesn't mean bad - it means what it says. The best sounding one of the lot was M7, recorded at Champagne-Ubrana, but the finale is a total 'train wreck'. M5 and M6 are decent albeit fast throughout. The digital M2, M3 and M9 are all horror shows, both musically and sonic wise. So if you mean that everybody starts together and ends together, and that there are lots of in-tune loud moments in between, then sure - I guess they're great.

Towards the end of Solti's reign I saw the CSO do M5 in Davies Hall. It was awful. The cymbal player had about five pairs of plate cymbals spread out on a table, all of which sounded just the same as the last pair, and with the result that it sounded as though he had just picked up the wrong pair. Gordon Peters - in spite of being the great musician and conductor that he was (Chicago Civic Orch.) - completely underplayed the bass drum in relation to everything else. The tam-tam was consistently underplayed (can't do that with dark sounding Wuhans). Arnold Jacobs was toward the end of his run. Clevenger's solos in the third movement were very hard and 'brackish' sounding (as described above). He did sound fine as long as he was playing less than fortissimo. The strings were NOTHING to write home about, even in the famous Adagietto. Solti himself was beyond atrocious.

I don't know, I think Solti's best Mahler days were his early Mahler days - before he even got to Chicago. Some say he tried to copy the VPO brass sound in Chicago. Others have said that the CSO brass section tried to hear themselves by bouncing their sound off the back wall. Both sound like excuses to me. Nothing I've heard from Solti sounds as good - to me - as what was put down on tape with Kubelik, Martinon, Stokowski or Morton Gould (not to mention Reiner, of course)

On Youtube, I've watched the Boulez/CSO M7 and the incredibly slow and boring Haitink/CSO M6. The playing is very good, but I think that hall just isn't good for works that require that large of an orchestra. Everybody is spread out in a very wide configuration, with not enough front to back depth. As result, the brass sound as though they're sitting right up front. I don't know, I think they should experiment placing the horns in center and across the very back, separating the trumpets from the trombones in the process (their a bad influence on each other) - and make the trumpets play German rotary valve models.

I often wonder what the Solti M8 would sound like if it had been the VPO instead of the CSO. It would have had more out-of-tune playing, yes, but the sound of the orchestra would certainly have better matched the soft edge singing of the Viennese choirs. As it stands now, there's a real disconnect between the perfect but 'hard' playing of the CSO, and the softer sounding choral forces (the dubbed in organ is also out-of-sync at one spot in Part I).

By the way, the tam-tam is great on Solti's CSO "DLvdE", but that's because Gordon Peters played it and was using Fred Beckman's own dining room tam-tam. Fred Beckman was the person who first imported Wuhan tam-tams from China and sold them to pretty much every major orchestra in American, including the 50" (130 cm) monster that Pittsburgh drags out from time to time. Too bad Yvonne Minton isn't a bit better on that one.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: AZContrabassoon on February 09, 2016, 11:41:49 AM: The Solti 8th is over-rated, but the reputation comes from its initial performance and at that time it WAS sensational - at least compared to everything else then available. It was a cheat of course. They tape it and later dub in boys' choir and organ? On LPs and listening thru speakers it did sound great, but the advent of the CD showed its processed, manufactured flaws. Headphones clearly showed the distortion and gimmicky sound. But in terms of audio extravaganza, it was miles ahead of what else there was: Abravanel and Utah in dull, distant sound - and no energy. Bernstein wasn't in the same league sonically, and neither was Kubelik - although that performance was quite satisfying.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: waderice on February 09, 2016, 12:50:55 PM: I still harken back to Horenstein's M8 at Albert Hall in 1959 for how that work ought to be recorded, and it sounds great - proper sound perspective, no later sonic overlays, and an electric atmosphere! For a modern sound perspective, Boulez' M8 sounds pretty decent, despite questionable performance spots. Organ sounds great in that one.

Wade
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: James Meckley on February 09, 2016, 02:03:37 PM: It's been suggested that if Phil Spector were to produce a recording of Mahler 8, it would sound a lot like the Solti. 8)

James
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 09, 2016, 06:51:03 PM: Yes, I agree with all of your comments regarding the Solti M8. But strangely enough, since its transfer on to CD, I think it's the Abravanel that has come out sounding pretty darn good, sonically speaking. Also, the 'live' Kubelik M8 on Audite sounds alright, and it boasts a far less operatic sounding cast of soloists than the Solti - more like Oratorio singers than opera singers (I know, I'm splitting hairs).
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 09, 2016, 06:55:16 PM: "About 20 years ago I was at a state football playoff game. One of the high school bands was on the field ready to begin the halftime show. When they started, my ears perked up. What is this? Can they really be playing that? Well - it was an arrangement of the finale of the Mahler 7th. Drastically cut, naturally. Did the arranger have no shame? And what about the band director? What I really felt bad about was that these 150 kids in band would come away from this experience hating Mahler, at least the 7th, based on this miserable arrangement. See -- Mahler and football do have a connection."

Un-freaking-believable!!! Of all things to try to get a bunch of high schools kids to play out on a football field. You must have been going out of your mind.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: waderice on February 09, 2016, 09:15:40 PM: Quote from: barry guerrero on February 09, 2016, 06:51:03 PM
I think it's the Abravanel that has come out sounding pretty darn good, sonically speaking.

Classic Records' 200-gram LP reissue of the Abravanel M8 sounds pretty darn good. I have Abravanel's M2, on original LP issue, Classic Records' 200-gram LP reissue, and DVD Audio CD. The later issues have improved sound.

Wade
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 10, 2016, 04:54:15 AM: . . . and both of those performances are really quite good, even if the Utah Symphony wasn't a top drawer group in those days.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: akiralx on February 15, 2016, 07:54:19 AM: The other new M1 from the Bav RSO under Nezet-Seguin sounds excellent to me. I will probably get this.
Title: Re: M1 with Blumine: Finnish RSO/Lintu
Post by: barry guerrero on February 17, 2016, 05:23:29 PM: Yes, I see that this particular performance was recorded in the Herkulessaal and not at the Philharmonie am Geistig (which as an acoustical train wreck).