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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: shawn on July 08, 2019, 11:24:36 PM
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Perhaps this topic has already been discussed on this board.
'I'm not at all sure that I like it myself now. All I know is that it's what I wanted to do at the time'
Well, people are often amazed when I confess about my favorite symphony from the complete symphony repertoire. I can understand that all to well. Because my favorite is an extremely nihilistic work, very forbidding, hardly accessible. It's not the kind of symphony you want people to hear when introducing them to Classical Music, because they'll probably run away screaming.
Here it comes...
Ralph Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony.
Yes. He tops my list.
There's something uncompromisingly honest about this work which I admire greatly. The mood is dismal throughout, but RVW counters those feelings, successfully and spine-chillingly with few moments of repose, which are extremely bitter sweet, not quite consoling, but unbelievably beautiful. The Fourth is a totally different deal than RVW's more pastoral symphonies (the 3rd, 5th). Copland once described the Fifth as looking at a cow for a considerable amount of time. In that respect, the Fourth is more like running away from a raging bull.
The Fourth is masterfully crafted. It's certainly not just a case of 'I felt depressed and disturbed, and therefore wanted to write it to shout a lot'. For what it's worth, William Walton called it the greatest symphony since Beethoven! :o
My very favorite recording of this symphony? It was my first acquaintance of the work, Bernstein's on Sony. You know, on that embarrassing Royal Edition. Of course, Prince Charles' water color painting on the front had nothing in common with this boisterous symphony. But it's a great reading, and very well recorded considering the often disappointing sound Columbia got from the New York recording venues. Bernstein's approach to the first movement is much more measured, not so hectic, but without sacrificing the severity of tone.
And severe it is. Some see it as a portrait of war, but WW I ended some 16 years before. May be it's more of a Mahlerian premonition, towards WW II.
In fact, I think it's RVW's most Mahlerian symphony. Comparable to the Tragic Mahler Sixth, although the latter is on a much larger scale, uses a larger orchestra (especially brass) and feels more classically organized than RVW. What makes RVW's Fourth also special, for me, is the fact that it is very expressionistic, without sacrificing the basic principles of tonality.
Well, there you have it. What's your confession about the symphony that holds first place in your book? ;D
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Other great first symphonies: Mahler (of course); Sibelius; Shostakovich; Brahms (of course); Schumann; Vaughan Williams; Elgar (I like his 2nd better); Franck d-minor (his only symphony); Debussy's "La Mer" (yeah, I know - but some claim it's a symphony), and numerous others I'm just not thinking of.
Other symphonists got better as they went along. In that category, I would place: Dvorak; Bruckner Saint-Saens; Nielsen; Rimsky-Korsakov; Copland; Ives and Schubert (although, his early symphonies are better than some think).
Bruckner is an odd case for me. I like the scherzo from his first symphony, but I haven't been able to finish listening to his second symphony. It just seems like scrambled ramblings of not-so-great melodic ideas, etc. Funny, because I really like the middle version (Oeser Edition) of his third symphony. In fact, I like that more than the fourth symphony, although there are some truly great moments in his 4th (coda to the first movement!).
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Bruckner is an odd case for me, too :D There isn't a Mahler symphony I do not cherish greatly (of course, I have my favorites), but I'm far more selective (critical?) when it comes to Bruckner.
For me, Bruckner starts getting interesting with his Third. Wonderful brooding first movement. For some reason, I do not like his Fourth. Perhaps the self-imposed nickname 'Romantic' puts me off, I think it's rather pretentious, especially since this Fourth is no more or less romantic than his other output. It raises high expectations which Bruckner does not quite fulfill.
The Fifth is a milestone in his output. Wonderful. It also has the best finale (Bruckner wasn't always in his element when it came to finales). The Sixth, well, it's not one of my favorites, but the Adagio is classic Bruckner.
I always compare the Seventh to Mahler's Ninth; a magnificent first movement (a symphony in itself), and with remaining movements on a lower level of inspiration.
The Eighth is probably the one I admire most, despite the fact that the Finale is far too long (and rather episodic), and the Scherzo can be very repetitive. The first movement has great urgency. The Adagio is, imho, Bruckner's most spiritual statement, like a long prayer. I always refer to climax in this movement as the Mount Everest of musical climaxes, though the Adagio from No. 7 is no weak tea either!
The Ninth is a far more consistently inspired work than his Mahlerian counterpart, which may shock some people! Thank the Lord it hasn't got a finale! I think of the last notes of the Adagio as the most consoling music ever written, before Mahler came to the scene with his DLVDE and, ultimately, his Tenth...
I admire Bruckner, but I don't feel the same 'click' I feel with Mahler. Perhaps the comparison is unfair to begin with. Also, I cannot sense a distinct evolution in Bruckner's composing style. Which is no crime at all, but it would have made things a little more interesting. :D
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You're scaring me - reading your posts is just like reading my posts. I agree on pretty much every point you make. Anyway, Jochum said that Bruckner 4 really should have been subtitled 'the mysterious', as opposed to "The Romantic". That makes sense to me.
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;D I'll try not to scare you in future ;D
'Mysterious'... very interesting. Great Brucknerian, Jochum, great in Berlin/Bavaria and just as great in Dresden (though, I have a soft spot for that orchestra).
I relish Van Beinum in Bruckner. Though in mono, this man knew what it meant to be a true Brucknerian. He knew exactly how to maintain forward momentum, without hurting the overall structure. His coda to the Eighth is unique, it's unbelievably exciting, and has never been done that way!
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So I've heard from others. I've never listened to the van Beninum B8 myself, so I'll seek it out. My favorite completed Bruckner symphony is the 7th. I agree that the first movement is best, but I enjoy the whole thing. I get a kick out of Bruckner's, "Ride of the Valkyries" scherzo movement. I also like Bruckner's 9th more than the Mahler 9th (both are great), but not any of the attempted finales attached. I also very much like the Te Deum, which Mahler performed several times and spoke highly of.
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Hello Barry, it can be difficult to acquire Beinum's 8th, at least without the other recordings. Happily this recording is on Youtube (with, to my ears, no apparent loss in audio definition) (It's not my upload :D)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvqjNT4NE4g
If you can find it on a CD, you probably won't regret it. Beinum is definitely on the fast side. The polar opposite of Celibidache (EMI, who takes 35 minutes longer). But it's fast with a policy. I don't think Bruckner has ever sounded this urgent, this dramatic, this powerful. The scherzo and finale benefit hugely by this approach, as if Beinum recognized the repetitive and episodic weaknesses of these movements.
I recommend it wholeheartedly.
Being not a connoisseur of Bruckner, is there an indication to which extent Mahler conducted or championed the Bruckner works?
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Shawn,
I know Mahler actually conducted the world premiere of Bruckner’s Sixth. As for much else I’m not sure. He did admire Bruckner as an instructor during his late teen years and early twenties at the Vienna Conservatory; Bruckner was a renowned theorist (and organist) there. There are mixed accounts on whether or not the two had much actual contact, but Mahler later, in a letter, refuted the claims that he and Bruckner were close in his conservatory years.
Erik
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I don't think I could claim one favorite symphony, even among Mahlers. It can change depending on mood, time of year, time of day or perhaps how tired I am when I get to sit down and listen. My least favorite is the Mahler 2. Other than that, I go through phases with them. Outside of Mahler I really enjoy Zemlinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius, Stravinsky and Ravel. Bruckner is hard for me, though when I listen to Bruckner I really Gerd Schaller on the podium.
Three years ago I finished reading the De La Grange biography and really started to listen to opera. I felt that I might gain a little insight by spending some time with music that Mahler spent the majority of his life conducting. While I may not have gained much insight, I have found new music that I can't stop spinning. Again, I don't have an overall favorite but I love Wagner, the opera's of Strauss (especially Die Frau Ohne Schatten, a total masterpiece) Der Zwerg by Zemlinksy, Korngolds operas, and the Janacek operas are my most listened too.
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I second your taste in opera. "Die Frau ohne Schatten" is one of my very favorites and Wagner has really grown on me over the years. I like Puccini's "Girl of the Golden West" because it has very short arias and involves places I know first hand, here on the left coast. It also has incredible harmonies and orchestration. The Janacek operas are a big favorite of mine. In fact, Janacek might possibly be my second favorite composer (it would be a tie between him and Shostakovich). I love "The Makropolous Affair". I haven't really warmed to Zemlinsky all that much. For that type of composer, I like Szymanowksi and Josef Suk more. I think "The Mermaid (Seejungfrau) is my favorite Zemlinsky work. Schulhoff is very interesting to me and I like his "Flammen".
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I will have to check out some Suk, Szymanowksi and Schulhoff, I am unfamiliar with their works.
I immediately enjoyed Zemlinksy, especially the Lyric Symphony. It's strike the same chord with me as Das Lied.
Janacek is so forgotten it seems. Really sad. His 2 quartets are really good, his orchestral work stand up the best. James Conlon has a great 2 disc set of Janacek orchestral works that is a great pick up. My daughter will also watch 'The Cunning Little Vixen' with me, too. It's either that or Hansel und Gretel.
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Yes, "Cunning Little Vixen" is also a big favorite mine as well - same for, "From the House of the Dead". A real Janacek 'sleeper' for me is the "Danube" symphony. I also like his crazy "Capriccio" and quirky "Mladi". A great composer with a different solution than Mahler. I love his music in the film "The Unbearable Lightness of Being".
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This topic could, should and probably will go on endlessly! For now I'll just add a couple comments:
I've adored Janacek's music for many years, and I've seen "Káťa Kabanová" twice at Lyric Opera. It brings me to tears.
I needed time to acclimate to Josef Suk's idiom. The "Asrael" symphony is terrific. Though "A Summer Tale" not usually considered a symphony, it's a highly effective work too. The "Blind Fiddlers" movement, featuring two English horns, is some of the most beautiful music in the literature. I save it for special occasions.
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I actually like "A Summer Tale" more than "Asrael". Both are good, aren't they? "Fantastike Scherzo" is probably my favorite work by Suk.
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I could never declare a favorite symphony, but it’s certainly fun to call out a few examples, in this case temporarily setting aside works by Mahler:
Prokofiev 2: Tough going for me at first with an industrial-sounding first movement, but I’ve come to like it a lot. The second movement theme and variations is highly imaginative and beautifully contrasted.
Prokofiev 3: Figured prominently in my high school years as it seemed to speak directly to my adolescent alienation. Try the weird scherzo with heavily divided strings playing eerie glissandi.
Prokofiev 5: Despite its popularity, I think it’s hard to bring off, but for me faster tempos in the first movement tend to work better.
Prokofiev 6: Again, this one really spoke to me in my early years of discovering classical music, and I love it just as much today. I think it’s a neglected masterpiece of 20th Century music (along with the second piano concerto).
Shostakovich 8: When you’re young and drawn to fast and loud, this symphony’s long stretches of slow and quiet can be daunting. But what an eloquent and powerful work, once you grasp its architecture. And it would be hard to find a more ferocious and and cathartic climax than at the end of the second scherzo and beginning of the passacaglia.
Rachmaninov 2: A beautiful, and beautifully constructed, symphony that for me works best uncut and with the first movement exposition repeat observed.
Borodin 2: To my ears, this work is just perfect. Powerful first movement, spritely scherzo, gorgeous slow movement and a celebratory finale. You could call it a textbook example of a classically proportioned symphony, but that would risk ignoring its expressive strength.
Haydn 88: Perhaps my fondness for this one owes to it being the first Haydn symphony of my acquaintance, but its wit and charm shine as brightly as ever.
And finally, Beethoven 8. Since its humor eludes many conductors, it tends to be the weak point in Beethoven symphony sets, but in a performance such as Szell/Cleveland, it’s irresistible.
Offered with profuse apologies to many, many other deserving works.
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Hello Roland,
What a bouquet of Russian greats ;D
It's funny you mention the 'less accessible' Prokofiev's, because I also admire them greatly, and their uncompromising nature is very much what I hear and admire in Vaughan Williams's Fourth!
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a great fondness for underdogs. That's why I crave Mahler's Seventh so much, not only because of its wonderful music, but also very much out of frustration that people often call this one of Mahler's 'least known works'. Yeah, of course it's one of the least known, but that's not Mahler's fault! It says a lot more about these people.
I can get frustrated when I see today's orchestras programming the same old tired main repertoire, like Prokofiev's Classical Symphony. There's nothing wrong with that work, but there are inordinate amounts of performances and recordings of that symphony, lesser so the Fifth, while the true greatness of Prokofiev, imho, can be found in the other symphonies! I also have a fondness for his Seventh, it has great atmosphere, almost ethereal!
The Third symphony is very, very contrasted, with a lot of what people not familiar with classical music would probably call 'noise', but the quieter sections are almost unbearably lyrical, mysterious, foreboding. Wow...
Rachmaninoff 2 is an endless stream of melodies coming straight from the heart, masterfully paced and orchestrated. The Adagio is almost erotic (note the climax) and that's not a criticism! If the coda of the Finale doesn't leave you with a warm glow, you're a better man than I am :-[
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I like Rachmaninoff symphony #1 because it's the most overtly Russian sounding one - closer to Rimsky or Borodin. I love the trumpet fanfares (with percussion) that starts the finale, as well as the series of tam-tam strokes at the end of the finale.
for Prokofiev, I really like P3, P5 and P7. Of the five piano concertos, I love the 2nd and 3rd ones. I also like the solo piano sonatas.
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It's extremely difficult to pick just one favorite (besides Mahler), but if I had to choose one it would be Beethoven's Eroica. It is just flawless to me, and I can never tire of it. There is no piece of classical music I know better than this symphony. Manfred Honeck's release last year was a game-changing recording and it’s my new favorite, but I'll always return to Karajan and Solti. Here are some of my honorable mentions:
Scheherazade by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. Is it a symphony? Pretty much. I admire every moment of this most colorful work. I have a special fondness for Russian composers. The third movement, The Young Prince and the Young Princess, is one of my favorite symphonic movements. I also really like the meter changes in the fourth movement as well as the imaginative percussion writing.
Symphonie fantastique by Hector Berlioz. This is the piece that got me hooked on classical music to begin with. It started it all, back in college. I love its journey, from hopeless romanticism to pastoral loneliness to opium overdose to diabolical orgy. What a trip! I still haven't gotten around to Harold en Italie, but I imagine I would like it. Michael Tilson Thomas with San Francisco is my absolute go-to recording. One of his better accomplishments, in my opinion.
And, as previously mentioned, Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony. Every note of this symphony is pure bliss. I have so many memories tied to listening to this symphony in many places. Just like Roland Flessner mentioned, I prefer this symphony uncut with the first movement exposition repeat. My all-time favorite recording is Gennady Rozhdestvensky with the London Symphony Orchestra, however lately I've been appreciating Vasily Petrenko with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra.
I also love Brahms' First Symphony. In fact, it's hard to choose which of Brahms' symphonies I like most, but it's probably the First. I'm also a big fan of his Third. Andris Nelsons' recent release of the four symphonies in Boston was incredible, in my opinion.
Dvořák's Eighth and Ninth Symphonies are incredible pieces to me. I performed his Eighth and it quickly became one of my favorite symphonies of all time. Manfred Honeck's release with Pittsburgh is my top choice for that one.
Do symphonic poems count? If so I'm going to throw in Eine Alpensinfonie and An American in Paris.
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Yes, I really like both the "Eroica" and the Strauss Horn Concerto (#1) that's on that M. Honeck/Pittsburgh disc from R.R.
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-Eroica-Strauss-Concerto/dp/B07GJ5G4CZ/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1563821340&sr=1-1
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To me, Benjamin Britten's "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" (variations on a theme by Purcell) is really underrated. It's not only a good young person's guide, it's a good everybody's guide. I really like this recording with Paavo Jarvi/Cincinnati S.O. on Telarc. I believe Dave Hurwitz gave it a 10/10 at Classicstoday.com
https://www.amazon.com/Britten-Persons-Orchestra-Interludes-Variations/dp/B000GYI3U4/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=britten+paavo+jarvi&qid=1563861715&s=music&sr=1-1
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Thank you for that thoughtful post. I recently downloaded a broadcast of Williams's 4th Symphony (Roger Norrington) and this day looks like as good as any to cue it up!
Perhaps this topic has already been discussed on this board.
'I'm not at all sure that I like it myself now. All I know is that it's what I wanted to do at the time'
Well, people are often amazed when I confess about my favorite symphony from the complete symphony repertoire. I can understand that all to well. Because my favorite is an extremely nihilistic work, very forbidding, hardly accessible. It's not the kind of symphony you want people to hear when introducing them to Classical Music, because they'll probably run away screaming.
Here it comes...
Ralph Vaughan Williams' Fourth Symphony.
Yes. He tops my list.
There's something uncompromisingly honest about this work which I admire greatly. The mood is dismal throughout, but RVW counters those feelings, successfully and spine-chillingly with few moments of repose, which are extremely bitter sweet, not quite consoling, but unbelievably beautiful. The Fourth is a totally different deal than RVW's more pastoral symphonies (the 3rd, 5th). Copland once described the Fifth as looking at a cow for a considerable amount of time. In that respect, the Fourth is more like running away from a raging bull.
The Fourth is masterfully crafted. It's certainly not just a case of 'I felt depressed and disturbed, and therefore wanted to write it to shout a lot'. For what it's worth, William Walton called it the greatest symphony since Beethoven! :o
My very favorite recording of this symphony? It was my first acquaintance of the work, Bernstein's on Sony. You know, on that embarrassing Royal Edition. Of course, Prince Charles' water color painting on the front had nothing in common with this boisterous symphony. But it's a great reading, and very well recorded considering the often disappointing sound Columbia got from the New York recording venues. Bernstein's approach to the first movement is much more measured, not so hectic, but without sacrificing the severity of tone.
And severe it is. Some see it as a portrait of war, but WW I ended some 16 years before. May be it's more of a Mahlerian premonition, towards WW II.
In fact, I think it's RVW's most Mahlerian symphony. Comparable to the Tragic Mahler Sixth, although the latter is on a much larger scale, uses a larger orchestra (especially brass) and feels more classically organized than RVW. What makes RVW's Fourth also special, for me, is the fact that it is very expressionistic, without sacrificing the basic principles of tonality.
Well, there you have it. What's your confession about the symphony that holds first place in your book? ;D
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I like Rachmaninoff symphony #1 because it's the most overtly Russian sounding one - closer to Rimsky or Borodin. I love the trumpet fanfares (with percussion) that starts the finale, as well as the series of tam-tam strokes at the end of the finale.
for Prokofiev, I really like P3, P5 and P7. Of the five piano concertos, I love the 2nd and 3rd ones. I also like the solo piano sonatas.
My listening buddy loves the Rachmaninoff Symphony #1 so much, he hand copied the score in 1958, when he was 12. He tells me one of his fondest memories was learning that he could get scores from the Library of Congress for 6 weeks on loan. He possess a dozen or so scores that he copied. In his retirement he has been putting together a compare/contrast of all the recordings that exist for the work.
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Thank you for that thoughtful post. I recently downloaded a broadcast of Williams's 4th Symphony (Roger Norrington) and this day looks like as good as any to cue it up!
That's great, Leo, I hope you'll enjoy it :D
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My listening buddy loves the Rachmaninoff Symphony #1 so much, he hand copied the score in 1958, when he was 12. He tells me one of his fondest memories was learning that he could get scores from the Library of Congress for 6 weeks on loan. He possess a dozen or so scores that he copied. In his retirement he has been putting together a compare/contrast of all the recordings that exist for the work.
That's great Vehemence, and I could hardly blame him, because Rach 1 is an amazing work, especially for a first symphony. It was almost universally panned by critics, which put Rachmaninoff in severe depression. But history has vindicated this work. The Rach 2 is much more performed these days, and still remains my favorite, but it is by no means better or more inspired than No. 1.
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We have so many interesting comments to respond to here that I don't know where to start, and the risk of not mentioning something that should be commended is high.
Eine Alpensinfonie clearly qualifies as a real symphony, IMHO. Scheherezade probably does too. I used to loathe it (R-K, that is) but have come to love it recent years. I cite Temirkanov/NY as one of the finest recordings of anything ever made.
The Eroica is fascinating on many levels, and would deserve its legendary status just on its own merits. Straddling the Classical and Romantic eras as it does, it's also a work to demonstrate the spectrum of performance practice from radical HIP to a more traditional Romanticized interpretation. When someone is skeptical that all this stuff makes a difference, I A-B the beginning of the Eroica in the Sawallisch/RCO and Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra recordings. No one so far has failed to grasp the difference. (The Sawallisch seems dishearteningly flabby at first, but if you can get past that it's possible to enjoy really fine playing and a deep rapport between conductor and orchestra.) Just to make this even more fun, Herbert Blomstedt conducted it here in Chicago a couple years ago, and when it was over, I realized to my astonishment that during the performance I was never tempted to place it along the HIP to traditional spectrum; the performance just worked and the music seemed to speak for itself.
Not sure how I left Dvorak off the list, but I'd add #7 too. The "New World" is one of the pieces that ignited my interest in classical music, and #8 has long been a favorite too. I'm glad his late symphonic poems--The Water Goblin, The Golden Spinning Wheel, The Noon Witch and The Wood Dove--are finally getting some traction in the repertory, because they are all outstanding works.