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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: waderice on November 29, 2019, 02:52:11 PM
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I found this out at the Facebook Mahler Group just this morning. It will be released on January 17, 2020, only in Germany (so far). So I went ahead and placed an order, but don't know yet if it will be available in the U.S. Here is a link to Amazon.de where you can see and place an order, if you so desire:
https://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Sinfonie-8-Yannick-Nezet-Seguin/dp/B07ZW9PYMR/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=mahler+sinfonie+8&qid=1575027128&s=music&sr=1-1&fbclid=IwAR3nGnlVH_9-5-LwdXKNL1xrr2ml9hstIvDWVqwOVPVgg-AnUS8O6Zz6pgg (https://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Sinfonie-8-Yannick-Nezet-Seguin/dp/B07ZW9PYMR/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=mahler+sinfonie+8&qid=1575027128&s=music&sr=1-1&fbclid=IwAR3nGnlVH_9-5-LwdXKNL1xrr2ml9hstIvDWVqwOVPVgg-AnUS8O6Zz6pgg)
I don't know how well this link will work in Microsoft's Internet Explorer, as it might appear in German, but to get the German translation, I had to copy the link from Apple's Safari to Google's Chrome browser to get an English translation.
Wade
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Wow, finally. This should be fantastic! If it’s anything like his wonderfully cosmic Rotterdam performance that I watched online then we’re in for a treat.
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Wade, how could this not possibly be made available in the U.S. - I can't imagine such a thing!!! Usually, new things show up in Amazon.de last, not first. How very strange. It's not showing at DG's own website, of course. Perhaps it's an Asian import (?).
Pasting the given ASIN number into Google Search, I see that it's showing at Amazon Italy as well.
https://www.amazon.it/Sinfonia-Dei-Mille-Netzet-Seguin/dp/B07ZW9PYMR
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Barry, I have no idea why. Just reporting what I saw at the Facebook Mahler group. It'll seemingly be a bit on the high side, as the Euro price will be around $22.00 equivalent, but I would think that if it were an Asian import, the price quite possibly would be even higher.
(Additional thoughts after posting the initial above reply): Maybe contractual restrictions/obligations prohibit its marketing in the U.S., but not sure. The two main choruses in the performances were the Westminster Symphonic Choir and the Choral Arts Society of Washington, DC. The only other recording of M8 that I've seen sold in the U.S. where the Choral Arts Society was involved was that of Gergiev's on the LSO label (don't ask me why and how that one got through to U.S. markets and the DG one won't). Don't know about any contractual restrictions on the children's chorus nor can I speculate on the contractual restrictions of the soloists.
It's taken over 3 years (almost 4) for this recording to finally get released (generally, it takes no more than one year), and I'll bet negotiations on the release of the recording during that time got bogged down because of the contractual obligations/restrictions of the participants. So Europe seems the best place for the recording to be marketed for the time being unless it gets pulled because of another snafu.
Wade
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I suspect this is all a misunderstanding by the Facebook folks. The US retail chain FYE is currently offering it for pre-release purchase on their website at $14.99, with a release date of 2020-01-17.
https://www.fye.com/mahler--nezet-seguin--the-philadelphia---symphony-no-8-aec.degrb003150602.2.html
I'll bet it will show up at Amazon.com sooner rather than later, but even if it doesn't and this is some attempt by DG to "blackout" the United States, it will ultimately fail; there will be many European vendors willing to ship it here, to say nothing of the many music-sharing blogs and torrent sites that will have it available for free download not too long after release.
EDIT: Regarding the contractual issues mentioned above, it would be hard to imagine an established company such as DG undertaking a major recording project like the Mahler Eighth without being absolutely sure that their attorneys had anticipated and resolved all possible impediments to the ultimate release of the product, particularly into the US since, after all, it's a US orchestra!
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That's good info. Regardless, I went ahead and ordered one from Germany as well. Their slow-boat shipping is less than 4 Euros.
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How odd the circumstances surrounding this important and vital release, since this performance was the centennial observance of the first performance of M8 in the U.S. by Philadelphia/Stokowski. It took nearly four years as I mentioned earlier, but late is better than never.
Wade
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It's now showing at Amazon U.S. of A.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZW9PYMR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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It's now showing at Amazon U.S. of A.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZW9PYMR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Really odd that it took Amazon.com U.S. that long for its availability to appear on line. Guess U.S. Amazon is quite backlogged for advertising new items compared to the rest of the world.
Wade
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The Amazon U.S.A. price is now down to $14.39!
It's disturbing to me that DG would print these up, distribute them but not advertise them. Does anyone else find that puzzling? If you go to DG's website, there's absolutely no mention of it. Yet, they've got those Rachmaninoff piano concertos with Tri-somebody-or-another plastered all over the website. Why do record companies seem almost resentful that the success and demand for Mahler symphonies continues on?
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It's disturbing to me that DG would print these up, distribute them but not advertise them. Does anyone else find that puzzling? If you go to DG's website, there's absolutely no mention of it. Yet, they've got those Rachmaninoff piano concertos with Tri-somebody-or-another plastered all over the website. Why do record companies seem almost resentful that the success and demand for Mahler symphonies continues on?
Barry,
The pianist's name is Daniil Trifonov. I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe that it's a marketing thing at work here.
Keep in mind that much of the legend that is Rachmaninoff was made in Philadelphia, where and when he concertized here, he considered the Philadelphia Orchestra the best orchestra in the world. His recordings that he made here are historic, have been, and continue to remain in the catalog of RCA/Sony. And I'm not saying that because I live here, nor are my origins from here; I'm originally from the Washington, DC area. So DG seems to be trying to play to the legend of Rachmaninoff here in Philadelphia with those recordings by Trifonov.
There's still another factor at play here. Having been to many concerts at the Verizon Hall in the Kimmel Center (the Philadelphia Orchestra's home), I've generally found that whenever a concerto, be it a piano or violin concerto is on the program, concert patrons older than I (I'm almost 70) come out in droves to enjoy that particular type of work, and at the conclusion of it being played, the applause is generally much greater than I would put forth myself. Those particular kind of patrons seem to love or prefer that type of repertoire. That's not to say that I don't appreciate the work, the performance, or the mastery of the soloist in the concerto; it's just that I generally don't appreciate a concerto performance as much as I would a regular orchestral work that would be played after the intermission. And I do have a good many concerto recordings in my collection as well as Mahler symphony sets.
Hope this puts things a little more in perspective on this conundrum.
Wade
P.S. - I've seen Yuja Wang perform the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto here in Philly. I think she's a much more exciting pianist than Trionfov (not to mention her flashy and sometimes provocative concert attire!). And she's a graduate of the local Curtis Institute, that has graduated many legendary musicians over the years (Bernstein for one) and had many legendary instructors to train these famous graduates. Interestingly, and oddly enough, her recordings also appear on the DG label.
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“Alles Vergängliche” is now available on Spotify as a preview. That organ. My god.
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Those trombones! For me, the important thing is that N.-S. DOESN'T cut short the very last syllable that the two choirs sing ("nan"). Many conductors do. Also, he doesn't cut off the Eb chord shortly after the final tam-tam/cymbal smash. Many conductors cut the symphony off prematurely. Why? . . . this moment summarizes ALL of western music up to the year 1910, so why be in a hurry to dispense with it. To me, this is nearly perfect. It could, of course, use a bit more of the tam-tam itself. But this will do.
After 2nd listening: I like how tapers in the added layers of sound on the very final chord: a crescendo in the organ, crescendo in the bass drum, then the added brass. It really works. Unfortunately, the left-in applause may be a 'deal breaker' for many people. Personally, I don't mind it.
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And the really neat and great thing was that I was there in person to experience it, live and in person! Something I will never forget!
Wade
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How do you folks on here feel about when conductors ignore or brush over the luftpause at the final cadence of the symphony? One of the only recordings I’ve heard it done correctly is the Chailly M8 on Decca. I don’t mind whether or not it’s observed, but I’m just wondering what others think about that breath mark. N-S seems to brush over it, which works for me.
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If you mean the one 13 bars from the end, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other.
My problem is with the Luftpause most conductors observe at figure [213] where one is not written at all! (For those without a score, this is at the big organ entrance a minute or so from the end.) If you look carefully at the score, the sopranos and altos in Choir II are holding the first syllable of Alles, which Mahler has tied across the bar line into the organ measure. To make a pause there requires that the sopranos and altos either 1) disregard their written tie, or worse 2) continue singing, their voices being the only sounds heard during the duration of the pause. From memory, I can think of two conductors who chose option 2, and it sounds ridiculous: Robert Shaw and Colin Davis.
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Yes, I was referring to the actual written breath mark 13 bars from the end. I agree with you about the Luftpause that some conductors add in at figure 213 (thanks for checking the score!). I did a brief survey of more recordings on Spotify and other conductors that go with the first option you listed (complete pause) are Bernstein/VPO (DG) and Mitropoulos/VPO (1960). It sounds odd to me. Option 2 seems a bit more common unfortunately, the most accessible example being Jansons from the RCO cycle. That also sounds a bit odd and unnatural to me.
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The question of the Luftpause at this point of the score of M8 is of no major consequence or problem for me.
To me, the greater issue of whether or not a Luftpause is observed occurs at the choral ending of M2, where some conductors either do, or don't observe the Luftpause at the fortissimo point where the chorus sings "Sterben werd ich um zu leben!" Mahler has specifically put it here in his score. Some conductors do not observe it, and for those that do, some tend to take it entirely too long, ruining the effect of this intense part of the symphony.
Wade
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I feel the same. When the pause is too short, it just sounds awkward. It works better if you hold that pause a second longer. But I'm fine when it's not observed at all.
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Last night I watched Chailly with Lucerne do the Mahler 8. There is no luftpause in this recording either. Since they were using the Universal Edition, maybe this has been removed. The performance itself was excellent. This may be the best choral work I've heard done in this piece. Their diction was outstanding, you could really understand what they were singing. The soloist were quite good, minus some pitch problems with all those high C's that the sopranos deal with. The tenor had a great sound but, his voice was a little too small and he was straining a little in the bigger moments. The woman who sung the Mater Glorioso was incredible. She used very little vibrato and had a beautiful, pure tone.
The Festival Orchestra was outstanding. To me, they sounded more a real ensemble than they did in the Abbado Blu-Rays with Lucerne.
This is a great Blu-Ray. Chailly is similar to his earlier Leipzig recordings but, perhaps not quite as large in sound. That could have to do with many factors though. It's very similar to the recent A. Fischer recording and I would say Zinmans with Tonhalle Zurich. More music than spectacle.
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I have an in-house recording of this - I'll have to listen to it again to get reacquainted. I do remember how awesome the organ is.
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Chailly's Lucerne M8 has received much high praise. I've watched it - I still have a preference for the earlier Leipzig one. Both are very good.
I've kept three M8's on DVD: Bernstein/Vienna Phil., Chailly/Leipzig and Dudamel/cast of a thousand. I like all three of them, but I consider the Chailly the 'best compromise'. I also own the Paavo Jarvi/Frankfurt one, but that's more for the very good M7 in that set.
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I also own the Chailly/Lucerne performance. I find it very good, although I still prefer his RCO CD (Decca) and the Leipzig performance. Chailly is pretty amazing with M8.
As far as the Lucerne performance goes I think Peter Mattei gives the finest Pater Ecstaticus I’ve heard. He just puts down his music and sings his heart out.
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The finale is already out to sample on the streaming services. It sounds really unimpressive, different from the YouTube video which I thought sounded much better (both in terms of performance and sound). Nearly-inaudible organ too, I hope the complete release will be better.
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At least two of us noted the very strong presence of the organ, so I'm wondering if it's something to do with your computer's sound system (?). Have you tried the posting of it on Spotified? I'm getting plenty of organ and everything else. With all the noise, the percussion are a bit recessed (unison gong and cymbals).
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I think the only recording of M8 with louder organ pedal tones is the Boulez one (DG). I played this in my car the other night and my rear view mirror was shaking. Konsgaard, I think it may just sound different than we're used to in comparison to other M8s. This organ has a particularly full and spacious sound in this recording. At high volume the wall of sound at the end is nearly overwhelming (in a good way). The final button chord is unbelievable. And I really love the immediate enthusiasm from the audience.
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I think that we need to wait and withhold judgment on Nézet-Séguin's Philadelphia M8 until it actually comes out on disk. We're getting lots of varying opinions from varying sources with users listening to it on varying types of sound equipment.
When I get my copy of the DG commercial disk, I'll need to compare it with my broadcast aircheck of four years ago. Then pit those against my aging memory of what I can best recall when I was there at the Kimmel Center's Verizon Hall to hear the actual performance in person.
Wade
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Tried it on 2 different laptops, different sound card and with a DAC. Also with 2 different pairs of headphones. Solti, Bertini, Boulez, Jarvi to name but a few have a louder organ, I need to check the rest of my collection (it is one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, if not my favourite, so I collect them compulsively). Ok maybe I was overreacting: the organ is audible but slightly so when compared to other recordings. Now, this is what I meant... But I have other issues on this single track: very annoying audience noise, there is a VERY annoying cough at 17 seconds, followed by more coughing at 22 and 24 seconds. Now, this is one of the most sublime, crucial moments of the symphony the chorus singing pianissimo in what is supposed to be utter silence and mystery. We have record labels like BR Klassik removing every single audience and stage noise from live recordings (i.e. the ones with Jansons). But DG decides not to edit them out? If you have followed other live DG released from the last few months you will notice that the coughing is really bad on their recordings, something that was not the case a few years ago with the same label. I am really wondering what on earth is going on.
Anyway, organ aside AND recorded sound aside (apart from the audience noise, it is rather unfocused and I've heard the lossless CD quality version on Tidal), the performance lacks momentum in the closing pages, at 6 mins it seems to drag and drag on... But we shall wait and see, perhaps the rest of the performance is OK.
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I've been listening to the broadcast recording of this and it's as not as compelling compared to the recent one my Adam Fischer though I like the trombones near the end.
If the commercial release has better sound that could change things immensely.
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They're very, VERY different performances. I like the 'big-ness' of the N-S./Philly performance. Anthony Dean Griffey is hardly my favorite tenor in M8, but he's more palatable here than he was on the MTT/S.F.S. recording.
I'm a bit puzzled by the sound quality conundrum, because the organ on the Spotify sample absolutely roars on my computer's modest sound system. The final chord is extremely strong - at least coming through my setup. Maybe the Mahler gods are just smiling upon me.
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In the Universal critical edition, what is called a “luftpause” in this post is indicated as an apostrophe running down the page just before the bar line in all instruments except the percussion. This is noted in another entry. That suggests a light breath rather than the longer pause that might be called a “luftpause." So this may be a subtle articulation indication rather than a structural one.
Evidently there are many manuscript additions in the sources of M8, some by Mahler as well as others. One would probably have to be a fully informed textual editor to appraise the situation. The textual complexity, as in the M5, makes for a good number of score detail uncertainties. There are, then, many textual as well as interpretive possibilities as we generally know. Perhaps certainty is not available in many instances.
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30-second samples of each track are now available on Presto Music. There are 32 tracks.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8713836--mahler-symphony-no-8
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In Part I, I think both the "accende lumen sensibus" and "gloria" samples sound quite good. It's definitely the big-boned Philadelphia sound. In Part II, I like the bass-baritone (Relyea). Most of the tracks sound pretty decent - it's hard to tell from little snippets.
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Ok, I've now heard the whole symphony as it has just been released. I can't believe I will say this, but I've heard some good things here - lots of detail, some odd instrumental highlighting that I personally liked, etc. I will write a detailed review and will make up my mind when I listen again and pay particular attention to the singing.
Unfortunately, the recorded sound leaves a lot to be desired (I listened to the 24 bit version) and the fact that this is a live recording is no excuse for the annoying coughing that could have been edited out (especially in the finale and the quieter sections as I've said before). And my second complaint has to do with the organ that, again in the finale, does not have much of an impact. From what people said above I gather that the organ was very present in the live concert (in the finale), but this is not the case here. Plus the fact that the audience erupts to a wild applause just before the last note fades away.
I will listen again carefully tomorrow to see if the performance is so good to render the above points, regarding the recorded sound, unimportant.
A review will follow soon.
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Throughout this thread I've been puzzled by the divergence of opinion regarding the organ balance and have looked forward to hearing it myself in it's official release. I just acquired it as a download (in my case the 16/44.1 version) and, after one straight-through audition and then a recheck of several key passages, here's my assessment of the organ sound:
1) There's an impressive amount of organ fundamental—this recording is way above average in that regard, though it might not be fully appreciated when listening on a system deficient in the bottom octave.
2) Whether because of registration or microphone placement, the organ lacks considerable mid-range and upper mid-range presence, making it seem "recessed" when compared with other M8 recordings.
Overall, despite some odd choral balances here and there, I find this performance very satisfying.
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You beat me to it, James. I listened to much of it at Spotify tonight ('free' Spotify, so I'm not getting the higher resolution). I agree with all three of your points. The organ is very present on my computer sound system (it has a small subwoofer). I'm quite satisfied and I look forward to getting the actual CD in the mail. I only have two minor complaints.
First, as with nearly every single recording of M8, the children's chorus simply isn't big enough (Mahler had nearly 300 kids in 1910). This is mostly a problem in Part I's concluding "Gloria" section. Second, Anthony Dean Griffey is not my favorite tenor for M8 - not by a long shot. That said, I think he's better here than on the MTT/SFS recording. Beyond, I just the 'big boned' sound of this performance and its overall 'optimistic' feel.
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Just to clarify. I didn't say the organ is not audible throughout. It is only barely audible in the Alles Vergangliche finale. Not that it matters a lot though, Rattle and others also have a barely audible organ. For a different approach, listen to Bertini's splendidly captured organ for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UnrMddufKo
James Meckley above is spot on when he says that "Whether because of registration or microphone placement, the organ lacks considerable mid-range and upper mid-range presence, making it seem "recessed" when compared with other M8 recordings." I also think this is true. But with the upper mid-range and mid-range nearly non-existent, what is left really? But this is nitpicking. What bothers me most is the coughing, espeically when other recording labels always make sure to remove any audience noise in their live recordings.
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Here's my two cents, for what they're worth.
The performance itself is monumental, beaten only maybe by Bertini's transcendent performance. All of the ensembles were on their A-game that night, and I can assume that this was the United States M8 performance of a lifetime. I can tell this was just about as good as it gets. Yannick N.-S. brings all of this off exceptionally well too. My favorite moment was how slow he took the Äußerst langsam. Adagissimo/"Dir, der Unberührbaren" sections, and the symphony's coda (as I've previously stated).
Now my gripe with this recording: the sound quality. I listened to this recording on the Idagio streaming service, downloaded lossless FLAC and with noise-canceling Bose headphones (wired up, in case of any lossy Bluetooth). I agree with Konsgaard about the overall sound, coughing, and the organ for the most part. The low-range pedal tones are unbelievable, but everything else is somewhat absent. I think what James Meckley stated about the organ just about nailed it. Also, why is there so much background noise? There wasn't much coughing during the quiet parts until the "Alles Vergängliche" when suddenly four people in the audience caught the flu. It's like there was one mic placed high above the entire stage à la BBC/Horenstein. Okay, I'm joking about the last two things. Anyway, that or this entire recording is taken directly from some sort of broadcast. There are some moments when the orchestra is captured exceptionally well, but just like the Eschenbach M2 there seems to be a loss of cymbals in the mix. ALSO, there is an intrusively consistent fuzz throughout the entire recording that is especially noticeable at quieter moments, and along with the fuzz the audio stutters throughout. It's in the same spots too; it wasn't just my circumstantial listening experience. This enhances my belief that this recording was ripped from a broadcast or something, though I'm probably wrong.
Overall an extremely fine performance from all involved. This recording is special, but I just wish the sound quality was much better.
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Since I assume that the fancy organ in Verizon Hall can do pretty much anything you ask the organist to do, perhaps N.-S. shares my preference that the pedal notes be quite strong, but less so for the mid and upper notes. Not because I don't like organ, but because those registers are already thick enough with other stuff going on. That's just a preference. I do, however, share E.W.'s and Konsgaard's enthusiasm foe the Bertini M8 recording. Those who have known me for a long time, know that I was beating that drum decades ago. For me, the greatest ending of all is on the Markus Stenz M8 (also from Cologne). On the other hand, the recording I think captures the organ best throughout "Alles vergaengliche" is the Jonathan Nott one from Bamberg (and it's a very good, overall recording). All that said, I love how N.-S. handles the very final Eb chord of the entire symphony - the way he tapers in the organ, followed by the upper brass, followed by a crescendo on the bass drum roll. It truly keeps that final chord dynamic to the cut-off.
As for the intrusive noises on the recording, I'd rather they be there than have DG greatly process the sound further. These are the hazards of doing a live recording. They could have used more directional microphones, but those also make a recording sound more artificial. For the sake of recording purposes, I would have preferred that they had asked the audience to wait five seconds before applauding. But I prefer this to the Tilson-Thomas, where I'm quite sure they dubbed in a separate session for the very end, sans audience (it's so sterile sounding). Regardless, this one is good enough that I can jettison one or two other ones that have been hanging around in my collection, gathering dust.
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I am not sure if you are aware with the BR-Klassik label and their Jansons recordings. Most of them, nearly all, are live recordings. You will never hear any cough or audience noise. I don't know what is wrong with DG nowadays, most live recordings they released last year suffer from horrendous audience and stage noise. Also, in the present recording I can hear the conistent fuzz Erik Wilson mentions. And I also hear some sound distortion in certain tracks. Very weird! It's a pity because this could have been an excellent Mahler 8.
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I agree about the BR-Klassik recordings. They do a fantastic job of turning a live concert performance into a studio-like experience. Their Nézet-Séguin M1 is case in point. The Ádám Fischer team (C-Avi) also does quite a great job; I think the only audience noise I’ve heard in the whole cycle is a single muffled cough during their M8 “Alles Vergängliche.” Besides light shuffling between movements.
I would like to reiterate that I think this is a pretty incredible performance (just about as good as M8 can and should be). I just have several issues with the audio.
I also agree with Barry about the organ; that one in particular is one of the finest in the US and I’m sure it has full capabilities. Perhaps it was an interpretive choice on Nézet-Séguin’s part. Either way I love those pedal tones. That’s basically the only reason I still often revisit the Eschenbach/Philly M2: the amazing organ.
And about the applause... yes I do agree that they should have asked the audience to wait a couple of seconds. But I also love the immediate enthusiasm.
This recording is turning out to be more controversial than I expected. I also think that’s exactly what we need from the recording industry: something that’s going to go against some expectations and spice things up a bit. This M8 recording is kind of a hark back to the way live performances used to sound. Almost like a... neo-classical CD ;)
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It may possibly that DG engineers didn't do the recording. When the cd arrives, I'll look at those credits.
N.-S.'s contract with DG was renewed after the M8 performances happened. Anyway, I'm not really hearing much that seems to be interfering on my system. Also, I'm not trying to talk others into liking it. At this stage of my life, all I care is if it works for me, and that others not try to shove Solti/CSO or MTT/SFS down my throat. Not a fan of either in Mahler.
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Still curious, I located my copy of the original radio broadcast on WRTI for comparison with the DG release. The broadcast is not pleasant to listen to because of WRTI's heavy-handed (and unnecessary) application of audio compression and limiting, but the impression one gets of the organ sound is quite different from the DG. The organ in the broadcast has presence and immediacy lacking in the DG release, while it retains its very impressive low-frequency contribution. This gives the broadcast recording a more normal organ/orchestra balance when compared with other M8 CDs and broadcasts, (e.g., the new Gergiev Munich release).
There are other differences as well. To name just a couple, the trombone section is not so prominent though still impressive, and the tam-tam is much more present in the mix.
For the record, Nézet-Séguin led four performances of M8 in Philadelphia, on March 10, 11, 12 & 13, 2016
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I'll keep both. But for practicality reasons, I'll probably 'go to' the DG issue every time since it has 32 tracks on it. Once I really know a recording, I often times skip the duller bits (limited time). Superficial, yes. I'm just one of Beecham's people: I don't like music, I just like the noise it makes.