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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barryguerrero on May 18, 2023, 09:51:27 PM
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I like the cover too, not that that matters. Samples available now at Presto Music.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9490835--mahler-symphony-no-3-in-d-minor
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I love how those times look too.
The samples sound good. This caused me to go back and listen to some of their previous recordings, 2, 6, and 9. They're all just fine. In comparing this developing cycle to Oehms' other with Stenz, there are aspects of both I like. For example, I think Netopil has the better 2 and 9, but Stenz the better 6. The sound quality is pretty similar in each cycle for the most part, so it will be fun to compare them both or even mix and match when all is said and done.
There's something about a normal, middle-of-the-road Mahler recording that really does it for me sometimes. I don't really know why.
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Not only that (Oehms), but the Simone Young M2 and M6 are quite good as well. Young's M6 is noteworthy, in that she uses the first version of the score from the lead-in to the third hammer stroke, to the start of the funereal dirge for low brass (trombones, low horns and tuba). Obviously I'm talking about towards the end of the finale.
Yes, I think much of Stenz's cycle is better than many folks think. The M3 is terrific in its own way. I like his "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" very much.
I agree about the samples sounding really good on Netopil's M3. The bells at the start of the "bim, bam" choral movement sound terrific. I like the pacing throughout. We'll see how it turns out.
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I quite like Netopil's M6th. By all accounts it's pretty excellent performance. The only letdown is the orchestra. With VPO or BPO, it would have made near the top of my favorite M6ths.
John
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Well, I listened to most of Netopil's M3 tonight on Spotify. There's some very pretty playing, and the tempos are all pretty much up to speed. I just find it lacks muscle where some muscle is needed. It's not bad, mind you. I think the Scherzo may be the best movement on here. I love the bells at the start of the "bim-bam" choral movement, and the children are quite strong. However, the centrally placed orchestral passage goes for almost nothing. The percussion are almost non-existent there (why!?!). The brass chorale near the end of the finale isn't bad, but it doesn't have a whole of amplitude either. I need to give this a more serious listening when I can crank up the volume. That may greatly change the perspective.
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I had the same initial thoughts, Barry. It checks all the boxes in the score and I can tell that Netopil puts some soul into it, but the orchestra lacks "oomph" and a sense of occasion. On the other hand, Oehms' other M3 with Stenz has a great amount of "oomph" from the orchestra but I don't really get a sense that Stenz loves this symphony as much as, say, symphonies 5–8.
In comparing the two Oehms cycles so far, my preferences are:
M2: Netopil
M3: Stenz
M6: Stenz
M9: Netopil
It will be pretty interesting to see how this plays out.
At least the tam-tam player in Essen really knows how to whack that thing!
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Barry wrote:
However, the centrally placed orchestral passage goes for almost nothing. The percussion are almost non-existent there (why!?!). The brass chorale near the end of the finale isn't bad, but it doesn't have a whole of amplitude either.
Are we surprised? No! Almost all the M3rds I've heard have the same problems in V. & VI.
John
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Very true, John.
I think overall the first movement goes over best of the six here.
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I definitely got a better impression of it this morning, as I was able to turn it up more. I could actually hear the snare drum part more clearly (I wish they would use a deeper dish drum and a bit heavier sticks). Still, I don't think it's enough to make me want to buy a copy. I love Netopil's fast tempo for the climax to 'the southern storm' passage, but it needs more percussion. The codas to the first and third movements are done really well. For me, the trombones could be stronger at the climax of VI's long brass chorale, but I do like his balance and tone quality for the two sets of timpani at the end. it's not TOO soft, as Abbado often times was with his timpani there, but neither do they sound like they're driving piles into the ground.
I get the feeling that the hall in Essen is rather 'dry' sounding. It's a little bit shy on the bass end, and the woodwinds are frequently swallowed up. Given that Netopil is supposed to be such a Janacek enthusiast, you would think he would insist that the woodwinds remain audible at all times. I also get the feeling he spent too much time focusing on the strings, of course.
For the time being I'm going to give this a slip, and wait and see how the Vanska/Minnesota and Bychkov/Czech Phil. M3 recordings turn out. If I find a used copy at a low price, I might give this a spin on a good CD player. That could change a lot.
Also, guys, I'm finally getting tired of Spotify's numerous commercial interruptions. I'm hesitant to go with yet another subscription plan of some sort. Suggestions?
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I just re-subscribed to Idagio last week. I love it. $9.99/month with lossless FLAC streams and downloads? Amazing. (check the prices on their website, not through the Apple app store as Apple jacks up the monthly price to $12.99 for no reason other than it competes with their own product so they can).
Idagio does a really great focus on composers and their works, and recordings. This is as opposed to Spotify where you have to search for albums and key words / artists (not classical-friendly).
I wasn't big on Apple Classical as I share the same grievances as David Hurwitz does about it: it's too focused on individual tracks whereas classical music is about works, which Idagio does really well.
Apple is the better all-in-one if you want to have classical and non-classical together, but in my opinion Idagio is the supreme solely classical app. Presto's new app is supposed to be great too; it's essentially their whole digital catalog organized very nicely, including jazz.
I think Idagio has a month free trial, check it out if you want.
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I subscribe to IDAGIO too but don't think dowanloads are allowed.
John
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You're right that you can't download and use the files themselves outside of the app, but you can download within the app itself for offline listening or to save data usage.
That's the implication of the "offline listening on mobile devices" bullet point of the details in their subscription plans: https://www.idagio.com/us/plans/
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Thank you, guys! Getting back to Mahler, I'm actually very happy with the Y. Sado/Vienna Tonkunstler M3 I picked up last month (great sound!). I like pretty much all of it, except for Sado's steadfast and glacial conducting of the last 7 or 8 minutes of the finale (from the start of the brass chorale). It's super-slow and he doesn't vary the tempo in the slightest. I'm not a fan of that.
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Ut-oh! . . . As I'm listening to more and more of this at a higher playback level, I'm beginning to like more and more of what I'm hearing. I'll just need to shake this off; let it rest on the floor for a few days, and then put it back together by re-listening to it from beginning to end.
I suspect that Amazon will eventually get the hard-copy discs at a reasonable price.
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Barry
Sado's M2 & M3 are both avalilable on IDAGIO and I like them very much.
The slow ending to the Finale of M3rd doesn't bother me at all and I like his pacing overall (33 min for I., 25 min for Adagio).
John
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My reference M3rds are
Bernstein/NYPO/Sony
Kubelik/BRSO/Audite
Inbal/FRSO/Denon
I think these three versions pretty much nailed the piece down.
John
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I’m having the same odd revelation as you, Barry. I listened to the whole thing through and enjoyed it more. It’s growing on me a bit.
This happened to me with the Roth / Cologne M3 from a few years ago; that one grew on me too.
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Yeah, the Tonkunstler uses the same indigenous Viennese horns, oboes, and natural drum skins as the Vienna Phil. use. The Sado M3 is a lot like the Abbado/V.P.O. one in that sense, except that it's far better recorded than the Abbado. In fact, I think those Tonkunstler recordings have captured the real acoustics of the Musikverein pretty much better than anyone else has. It's a great venue 'live', but doesn't particularly record well.
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Okay, after listening to this new Netopil / Essen M3 a few more times over the past days I've grown to like it even more. I don't think it stacks up against any of the greats, but on its own I find it a solid and well-integrated M3. The Esseners don't compare to, say, Vienna or the Concertgebouw, but they do a fine job and there isn't really anything I would consider genuinely "sloppy playing" in this recording. And the sonics are quite good; I'd say better than Oehms other M3 with Stenz. I also think that Netopil has a good sense of what the score demands, and Mahler's music as a whole. And I certainly can't argue with any of his tempi.
When I compare snippets to other great recordings––like a Bernstein one––it sounds lackluster (but what doesn't?). However, and just like a Boulez Mahler recording, if you listen to it in full it sounds much more satisfying within the context of itself. Those big moments––like the ending brass chorale––that sounded weak before when comparing it directly to other recordings sound much better when you simply take the recording as a whole and let its narrative play out.
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That was last impression I had as well. I wanted to let it rest on the floor for a few days, before taking it in again. Unfortunately, Christina is seldom 'out of the house now' (she fractured her shoulder in rural WA), so I'm not getting opportunities to crank it up, and listen straight through from beginning to end.
I really LOVE 'the southern storm' fantasy passage played really fast and tight, like it is here (it's rhythmically really tight!). I just wish the accompanying utility percussion had cut through the dense textures a bit more than they do.
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John, I don't have 'reference' recordings, I don't think - perhaps just favorites. With M3 - as with most of the Mahler symphonies, I would have a very difficult time narrowing my list down to just a couple. Sooooo, here are some of my favorites by whatever.
U.S. - Alan Gilbert/N.Y. Phil. (download or streaming only); Jaap van Zweden/Dallas S.O.; M. Honeck/Pittsburg; Salonen/L.A. Phil.
Europe - Haitink/BRSO; Boulez/V.P.O. (the 'pirate' from Carnegie Hall is even better than the DG studio issue); Inbal/Frankfurt R.S.O.; Adam Fischer/Dusseldorf; Dudamel/Berlin Phil.; Kobayashi/Czech Phil. (sadly, Kobayashi's humming and grunting is very audible); Ashkenazy/D.S.O. Berlin; Stenz/Gurzenich; Bychkov/WDR Orch. Koln . . . . probably one or two others I'm not thinking of.
England - Horenstein (but I like the sound of the Nonesuch LP's over the pale sounding Unicorn CD issues); Rattle/Birmingham
Youtube only - Tennstedt/Minnesota S.O. (absolutely outrageous!)
Pirates - D. Gatti/Concertgebouw (absolutely fantastic!); Salonen/Dresden Staatskapelle; D. Harding/Swedish R.S.O.; Welser-Most/Cleveland
DVD - Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orch.; Paavo Jarvi/Frankfurt R.S.O.
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Interesting lists. It seems that I should really revisit Inbal with Frankfurt in the 3rd. Many of the favorites offered above, would also make my list.
To throw a couple of my favorites not listed I'd add: Zinman with Tonhalle, Chailly/RCO (wish we'd gotten a blu-ray with Leipzig), Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati, I. Fischer/Budapest, and Gielen/SWR.
Honorable mention for best brass chorale in mvt IV would go to Jarvi, and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra. This is a VERY uneven recording, but the sound of the brass in the chorale is unmatched.
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I too wish we got a Chailly / Leipzig video. If completed that would take the cake for the best video cycle. Everything else is just amazing.
While we are bouncing lists around, here are ten of my personal favorite M3s at the moment, in no order:
Boulez / VPO
Haitink / RCO ‘66
Roth / Cologne
Dudamel / Berlin
Chailly / RCO
I. Fischer / Budapest
Á. Fischer / Düsseldorf
Bernstein / NYPO
Kubelík / BRSO (DG)
López-Cobos / Cincinnati
It seems there are a few we can all agree on!
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It's just positively absurd that Chailly and the Leipzig people couldn't have worked out something, in order to get that video Mahler cycle completed. It's very frustrating. Another frustration, is that DG - or somebody else, possibly - haven't bought the rights to Abbado's Lucerne Festival Orch. performances of Mahler, and issued them in a box set of CD's, or just downloads. Imagine if they had done that, and added in Chailly's Lucerne Festival M8!
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This is my personal preference, but I think Abbado's Lucerne recordings are his best Mahler recordings overall. Maybe his Chicago 7th is better though.
You're right, it would be wonderful if DG acquired those videos and released the audio like they did with the M2 (and included that solid Chailly / Lucerne M8 as well). I'd buy that CD box set in a heartbeat––and I already own the video cycle!
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As for Boulez/VPO M3rd, I prefer his 2001 live concert in New York to the DG recording.
John
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Yes John, I agree with that. I think Boulez was a bit better live than many people thought.
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Just an update, guys. My local used CD store, Streetlight Records, is going to order a copy of the Netopil M3 for me from Naxos. They will charge me the full retail price. However, I can bring in things to trade towards it.
As much as I love the 'musicality' demonstrated upon my Jean Martinon/Chicago Symphony box on RCA, I just don't play items from that box often. I already have separate issues of the Nielsen #4, and the excellent Ravel disc Martinon made in Chicago (in fact, I have two of those). Streetlight should get a good price for that online from another customer. There are other things I have to trade as well. The lord knows I don't need yet another Mahler 3 recording, but I really like the Netopil one, and I LOVE the cover on it. I also want to support that project from Oehms just a little bit.
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Barry
I have yet to give the Netopil M3rd a listen, but as I wrote, he delivered a really outstanding concert including Smetana Overture & Dvorak 6th in Seoul, Korea a couple weeks ago. After the great success there are talks going on already about inviting him to become a music director of the Seoul orchestra.
John
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Interesting. I'm not sure his Janacek CD's are as good as advertised (Supraphon). So far, his best recordings have been his Martinu ones. He seems to excel with Martinu.
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The buzz around the Netopil cycle has caused me to revisit Markus Stenz's. Wow, I've forgotten how much I admire this cycle.
If I were to conduct Mahler myself (never going to happen), I think the tempos would pretty much be what Stenz does -- almost all the way through. I have small quibbles here and there about little details being buried in the mix, but overall this cycle is vastly underrated. I don't really think there are any weak links here on the whole. Some movements don't always work, though.
There are multiple movements throughout that Stenz does better than almost anyone. For example: M1.III, M4.II, M5.V (even better with Melbourne), M7.IV, M7.V, end of M8.
To me, Stenz is a great Mahler conductor who's just never been given the opportunity to lead a truly Mahlerian orchestra. It's kind of a shame, and I hope his day comes.
This one goes under the radar pretty often. I'd recommend a revisit if it's been a while.
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I listened to the Stenz cycle recently and found it excellent, both in sound and performance, overall. There are some parts where he did differently than from what I'm used to, too many to elaborate on here. I was disappointed to get the entire cycle (in a box) on regular CD, when the separate symphonies were released as SACD discs. Wonder why the box set wasn't made SACD, as the Nott cycle was?
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That's a good point, and I wonder the same thing. My guess is that it's simply their budget box, and they want to be able to make more money from the SACDs by folks buying them individually.
Also omitted from this box is the same team's incredible Wunderhorn songs. In my opinion, those stand with the best out there (Chailly, Bernstein, etc.).
I hope we get to hear more Mahler from Stenz one day. I remember seeing a live stream concert with him conducting M4 (I think) sometime in the past few years, and the program introduced him as a "Mahler specialist." I wonder if Mahler is a very specific focus of his as a conductor? I wish I could remember where I saw / heard this.
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Stenz WAS conducting in San Diego, but I have no idea if he did any Mahler down there. And speaking of 'down there', with his Australian connection already in place, I wonder if Stenz will begin conducting in Asia - the way J. Nott, Edo DeWaart, Bertini, Inbal and other truly good Mahler conductors have done.
I had that Stenz Mahler box for a while, and then sold it off because I was so disappointed in the reduction of sound quality. I have his M7, M8 and "DKW" on sacd/cd hybrid discs. I wouldn't mind adding his M3, M6 and M9 on hybrid discs as well, but particularly the M3.
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Barry, your comments about the reduction in sound quality (CD vs. SACD), plus leaving out the DkW songs from the Stenz Mahler cycle make sense. Maybe I'll have to listen to the cycle again and decide what and if I'll be able to get SACD versions of the individual symphonies as you mentioned.
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After a few hearings, I've decided I like this Netopil M3 enough to have my local used CD store, Streetlight Records, order me a copy from Naxos. I'm going to bring them some used things in perfect condition for trade credit. Hopefully I'll have enough credit left over to also get them to order the Vanska/Minnesota M8, once that someday becomes available (I'm pretty sure I'll want that on SACD). Of course, that'll be followed a few months later by Vanska's M3. Not that it matters at all, but I really like the cover on the Netopil M3 release.
Another thing I'm looking forward to getting - someday - is the complete Shostakovich symphonies (and other goodies) with A. Nelsons/Boston S.O. on DG. They're issuing the last release (I think) in the series just now: symphonies 2, 3, 12 and 13. Perhaps there will be some concertos discs also. DG has announced the release of Nelsons' complete Bruckner cycle from Leipzig, so I'm hoping the Shostakovich box won't be far behind. As far as Nelsons' Bruckner series goes, what I'm hoping is that they'll issue all of those R. Wagner items, together, on a separate disc. THAT, I would buy. They're really good. I really like Nelsons' Vienna Phil. box of Beethoven symphonies. I also have his R. Strauss box with Boston, Leipzig, and a lineup of really good soloists.
F.Y.I.
Barry
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I gain more respect for the Netopil series with each release. The M2 shouldn’t be slept on either; I like it even better than Bychkov’s and Vänskä’s.
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Really? . . . I'll go back and give the Netopil M2 another listen. Even though the sound isn't terrific, I rather like that Bychkov M2.
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All three are really good. You might disagree since I know how much you liked the Vänskä M2.
The playing is better with the Czech Phil, that’s for sure, but I like the symphony’s pacing better with Netopil.
I also found Pentatone’s engineering to be lacking a little for the M2, which was a bit surprising.
But again, they’re all fine recordings. I just have a preference for the Netopil. I’d recommend any of the three to someone.
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Hi Eric. I went back and listened to the Netopil M2. It's certainly very well recorded. The ending is mostly quite good, but I would like more of a real pipe organ. Also, I think the very last note of the symphony could use more of a crescendo, which is something Bychkov did well. But I do have two other things that really bug me, both having to the do with the final climactic passage of the 'march of the risen dead souls' section of the finale.
Where there's a series of offstage trumpet fanfare figures - those are supposed to come in closer as they go. Soooo, at the last time the offstage trumpets play there, they're supposed to be close enough that you hear their rapid descending scale lead right into where the entire orchestra comes back in, tutti (and fortissimo). To be fair, Netopil's isn't the only recording where that's a problem - not by a long shot. But if the trumpets aren't clear and audible there, it just sounds like an empty hole. But what also bugs me is that the rapid series of tam-tam strokes at the end of that same section are pretty much inaudible. They're somewhat audible on the Bychkov. That's unfortunate, because the tam-tam playing at the climax of the Scherzo movement is really good.
That said, though, Bychkov does much better with the passage in the Scherzo where a trio or quartet of trumpets start singing to each other. It's a passage at a slower tempo. Bychkov makes a real meal out of it. Also, aside from the climactic passage, I like Bychkov's Scherzo better in general. I think it's more animated and has more character.
Perhaps what Netopil really has going for him, besides really good sound, is that his performance does really flow well (as you mentioned) - which is a feature I really like about his M3. As for the Vanska series, I like those better when I play them back on my SACD player (but in the two channel mode, as I don't have 5.1 Surround). The M2 sounds pretty darn good when you play it that way.
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Thanks for your details, Barry. It helps me understand these recordings better.
Funny you mentioned that offstage trumpet crescendo passage because I noticed that exact issue when I listened to it yesterday, though I didn't know how to put it into words like you did. Chailly's M2 is amazing with that part; I don't know if I've heard it done better, but if there is a recording that does let me know. Come to think of it, Bychkov's recording reminds me very much of Chailly's, and even the timings are very similar (and they both have sound quality issues!).
I think Netopil has the most natural-sounding choral climax of the three. The choir has the most organic fullness — while the diction is amazing on the Vänskä recording, the choir sounds a bit weak and I personally despise whenever I can hear the soloists louder than the choir; it happens just slightly near the end of the choral section (Zinman and Inbal [Denon] have bigger problems with this). You're right that the crescendo of the final bars needs more in Netopil. Though I do find Vänskä's final chord itself to be weak.
I won't deny that the Bychkov and Vänskä ones are probably the winners here, even if I prefer the Netopil one. I must just be rooting for the underdog.
It seems that Bychkov's is the best played of the three, Netopil's is the best conducted / paced, and Vänskä has the best sound. In a perfect world we'd have all three in one recording! At least it still makes all three worth listening to, in my opinion.
Even if it's not perfect so far (not even close), the Netopil series is turning out to be pretty consistent which is more than one could say about most cycles out there. I probably just jinxed it. It reminds me of Stenz's cycle, of course also on Oehms. As with the Netopil M3, the M2 sounds MUCH better when you crank up the volume, I've noticed.
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I will definitely revisit Netopil's Mahler. I kinda liked the first release by them, M9th. Their M6th was pretty excellent although the playing was somewhat low keyed.
Like I said, I saw Netopil conducting Smetana, Chopin (PC #2), and Dvorak 6th in Seoul in July and I was blown away. It was the most impressive, thoughtful, and powerful Dvorak 6ths I ever heard, and everyone in the audience felt the same too.
John
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I'm not sure I know of an M2 that just gets every element, just right. Probably Haitink's first Concertgebouw M2 comes closest for me, along with Klemperer's 1965 stereo BRSO one. But just to sort of let you know 'where I'm at' with M2, I'll try to list what I own in roughly chronological order.
I have both Stokowski recordings (live at RAH, and his RCA studio one). I have both Klemperer recordings (BRSO, and the studio Philharmonia one). Bernstein/N.Y./CBS; Blomstedt/S.F.S./Decca; A. Litton/Dallas S.O./Delos (excellent sound quality!); Z. Mehta/Israel Phil./Teldec (yes, I prefer this one to his famous Vienna Phil one); Ozawa/Saito Kinen Orch./Sony Classical; Abbado/Lurcerne Fest. Orch./DG; P. Jarvi/Frankfurt R.S.O./Virgin Classics; Boulez/V.P.O./DG (it's in the box); Y. Sado/Tonkunstler Orch. of Vienna; as well as the more recent and discussed Vanska and Bychkov ones. THAT's ENOUGH!!! . . . In addition, I have 'pirates' of the excellent Bernstein/Cleveland Orch. M2, as well as the more recent Nezet-Seguin/Philadelphia M2.
I really could live the rest of my life with any of those.
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I only collect box sets at this point since I have access to lossless streaming on Apple. So the M2s I own physically are Abbado/Lucerne, Bernsteins Sony + DG, Bertini, Boulez, Chailly RCO + Leipzig, Gielen, Kubelík DG, Maazel/Philharmonia, Nott, Stenz, Levi, de Waart.
Of all those, my favorites are Nott, de Waart, and Chailly’s Leipzig.
I could live with them, I guess. Waart’s probably comes closest to my ideal vision, then probably the live Chailly one.
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Excellent picks. I could easily live with those as well. I've listened to the J. Nott one at Spotify, and liked it just fine. Oddly, M2 was sort of a dud in the M. Stenz cycle. I saw DeWaart do M2 in S.F. It was so long ago, that I don't remember much about it. I liked all the Mahler performances I saw him do here. I think of DeWaart as sort of a less dour B. Haitink.
I'm trying to think of what the best M2 Ive' seen 'live' was? . . . . I probably liked the one I saw in the new Bing Center at Stanford University best, played by their own orchestra. It's a very good, but a small-ish hall, so the performance was very 'in your face'. The electronic organ they used actually sounded good (they normally don't). I remember the Blomstedt one making a very positive impression. Not an MTT fan.