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41
Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Re: Yutaka Sado, Tonkünstler-Orcheste
« Last post by MichaelO on March 20, 2025, 07:58:04 PM »
Hi John:

Thank you very much for your reply.   I found your observations helpful and gave a good sense of Sado's interpretations.  Did you get these as downloads or streamed?
I will probably get the physical cds as I don't  do downloads etc.

Thanks again.
Michael
42
Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Re: Yutaka Sado, Tonkünstler-Orcheste
« Last post by John Kim on March 20, 2025, 05:51:28 PM »
Michael,

To me Yutaka Sado is the Mahler conductor of our time. Save for the Fifth which was recorded first in the ongoing cycle I LIKE ALL OF HIS Mahler so far - M1, M2, M3, M4, M6, and M7. He has two big advantages going for him: 1) the Vienna based orchestra, Tonkunstler Orchester who plays authentically and idiomatically for him, 2) the outstanding acoustics of the Musikverein in which they were recorded.

Sado's readings are expressive and idiomatic but also very cogent structurally. He isn't too excessive a la Bernstein or even Levine, but he adopts flexible tempi throughout making good contrasts building power and drama solidly.

I particularly like his M2nd: you'll never hear more grand and moving Finale, especially the ending in which organ is very audible and Sado's slower-than-normal tempo helps tremendously build up the climaxes. But the rest of the symphonies are on equally exalted level.

I am eagerly waiting for the final two installments, M8 and M9 from Sado/Tonkunstler.

John

 
43
Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Yutaka Sado, Tonkünstler-Orcheste
« Last post by MichaelO on March 19, 2025, 09:53:16 PM »
Hi:

Has anyone here heard Sado's Mahler recordings?  Could you please give me your thoughts on his interpretations.

Thank you.
Michael
44
I wondered about that, as I think the very same thing happened when Oehms Classics issued the box set of the complete Mahler symphonies with Markus Stenz. The individual releases were SACD hybrids, but the box set was strictly two-channel. Sadly, there was a noticeable degradation in the sound quality. I got rid of the Oehms/Stenz box for that reason. Wisely, neither Tudor (Jonathan Nott) or BIS (Vanska) did that when they issued their complete box sets.
45
I do think that M5 is one of Zinman's stronger performances in the set, but something is odd about the SQ throughout, lacking in presence and transparency. I wonder if it's because they were originally recorded for surround sound. I have the SACD disks but I play the Redbook two-channel layer, lacking an SACD player or surround equipment.

In an interview, a Telarc engineer explained that when they record in surround, the primary recording is very dry and ambience is provided by the surround channels. He said that it can't be mixed down to two channel, and that they are really making a separate recording with different mics for that. I've always wondered if RCA tried to turn a surround recording into two-channel stereo for the Zinman set. Their other Zinman/TOZ recordings in plain old stereo don't sound like the Mahler set.
46
I not only like Bychkov's Mahler 3 a lot - which took by surprise - I LOVE his recording of the Tchaikovsky "Manfred". He makes sound like a unified and GREAT symphony (which it is).
47
It could be an issue with my playback equipment, as the low strings sound 'boomy' and not clear enough to me on the Jarvi recording. I do like Jarvi more than Zinman in middle movement Scherzo. But I like Zinman's one minute longer first movement, as well as his one minute longer finale. I like the finale to build up steam on its on, and not sound too pushed. All that busy chugging in the strings gets muddy if they're pushed too hard. And by going a bit slower, it makes Zinman  - and others who do this - sound as though he's really turning up the heat as we're approaching the big brass chorale and the coda. It gives the illusion of accelerating where the trombones do their unison descending scale. With 14 minute finales - such as with Jarvi - it just feels like, "oh, now we're here at the ending". 15 to 15:30 works best for me in the finale. I think the Adagietto was pretty much a tie.
48
I just listened to this on Idagio and for me it goes to the top of the list. If dynamic contrast is limited, to me it seems the other way around, that the quieter parts are normal and the loud parts seem restrained. But it's not egregious and I'm not sure I would have noticed, Barry, if you hadn't pointed it out. I am listening with good Grado headphones on a business-class laptop.

Järvi places the second violins on the right and low strings on the left. In the Zinman recordings, the seconds were also on the right but so were the low strings. In Zinman the seconds often seemed faint but in this recording, they're at parity. Mahler often exploits interplay between the two sections and the antiphonal placement pays dividends.

Example: In the second movement, just before number 19, the firsts and seconds play staggered high Fs, a passage that loses its effect if the violins are massed instead of separated. Then too, in that elaborate contrapuntal writing in the Finale, the antiphonally placed sections help clarify the lines.

One strong virtue of this recording is not only transparency through the whole orchestra but the coherence and strength of the woodwind choir, which is sadly rare and at least for me, a hallmark of a satisfying Mahler performance.

I did not notice particular mannerisms, Järvi following Mahler's instructions scrupulously, apart from one quibble: In the Scherzo, shortly before number 29, the obbligato horn plays a series of quarter notes ending in three descending notes that land on a C (notated; actual pitch F). At the beginning of this phrase, Mahler writes "nicht riten." and "nicht zurückhalten!" indicating that the phrase should be played firmly in tempo until those three descending notes, finally mark "rit." The horn player slows down a bar or so before he is supposed to. Quite a common contravention of the composer's explicit instructions, and in many performances, it's much more pronounced.

The hornist, Ivo Gass, is otherwise first class in every way. I can also praise the instances when a sustained note shifts between the obbligato horn and the orchestral section; in many performances, the loudness sometimes fades (though *somebody* is supposed to be playing fortissimo throughout the phrase). Here it's performed as Mahler instructs.

Overall, to my ears this is a really outstanding release and I'm looking forward to upcoming installments in the cycle.

Note: My score is the Dover, based on the 1904 C. F. Peters edition.
49
I have some age-related hearing complications and turning the volume way up would be inadvisable. In fact I just declined a free ticket to the Mäkelä/CSO M3 next month because the seat is in the front row where the harsh, grating sound in the loud parts is painfully unbearable.

For M3 my solution is to spin up the Kubelik/BRSO studio CD. Despite its age, the winds are stunningly present and the whole recording is like a conversation among human (and in M3, animal) voices. It puts many newer recordings to shame, but Nott/Bamberg is more than respectable in that regard.
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'It is not a lack of character in the playing of the CPO musicians but a characteristic of the recording.'

--> Turning the volume up, way up helps bring the woodwinds forward more prominently.

Indeed, compared to the other recordings in their Mahler cycle the sound is somewhat lacking in warmth and is tad too 'hard'. But it has a great sense of 3D effects with a good depth and an enormous dynamic range.

John
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