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Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Re: OT: Happy Beethoven's Birthday!
« Last post by barryguerrero on December 17, 2024, 06:43:37 AM »
I generally prefer the more Haydn like Beethoven symphonies - 1,2,4 and 8 - to the more illustrious ones, with the exception of the "Pastoral". I don't ever need to hear B7 ever again - they play every single bloody day on the local classical music radio station. I have to be in the mood for B9, which is not all that often. And I agree with David Hurwitz's assessment of the "Erocia":  the orchestration is too small and too basic for such an 'epic' symphony. However, I always love it when Beethoven employs the horns in a trio section of his scherzo movements.
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Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Re: OT: Happy Beethoven's Birthday!
« Last post by Roland Flessner on December 17, 2024, 02:54:49 AM »
It took me a long time to warm to Missa Solemnis but I finally did a few years ago. I do prefer the HIP-style performances, such as Gardiner, Rilling, Zinman, Herreweghe, etc.

There is very little Beethoven that I don't like but I do have a special regard for the humor in the Eighth Symphony (perhaps the least frequently performed). No Beethoven symphony could be called neglected but I love the Fourth. (Antiphonally placed violin sections are urgently needed.) Those not familiar with the op. 1 piano trios might make their acquaintance. The finale of op.1 #2 is great fun, kind of like the Lone Ranger for three musicians.

Quite a few of the violin sonatas will reward the listener as well.

I love the St. Matthew Passion but I don't think I've ever listened to it in a single evening even at home. Hearing it whole while planted in a wooden pew would present orthopedic challenges if nothing else.
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Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / Re: OT: Happy Beethoven's Birthday!
« Last post by barryguerrero on December 17, 2024, 12:04:25 AM »
I love the "Pastoral" Symphony, as well as most of the late string quartets from Beethoven. However, I've never really warmed-up to the "Missa Solemnis". It's interesting that Mahler never conducted that. I know other people who think it's the cat's meow. For big choral works, I guess I like Mahler 8 and the B. Britten "War" Requiem the most. Janacek's "Glogolitic" Mass too! Faure's Requiem is really nice. I guess for more traditional Austro/German types of masses, I like those from Haydn the most. The problem with big choral works is that they generally have long and dull vocal solos as well. At least Mahler knew to keep his vocal solos short   .   .    .   .  Frankly, I was never so bored in a concert than why I tried to sit through the whole of J.S. Bach's "St. Matthew" Passion at St. Paul's Cathedral in London in 1981. Never again!
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Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions / OT: Happy Beethoven's Birthday!
« Last post by Roland Flessner on December 16, 2024, 07:12:55 PM »
For those so inclined, celebrate by spinning up some old favorites. I know I will be, starting with the piano trios op. 1 numbers 2 and 3.

With your indulgence, I'll share two favorite quotes:



The capacity for melody is a gift. This means that it is not within our power to develop it by study. [In Beethoven] we have one of the great creators of music who spent his whole life imploring the aid of this gift which he lacked. So that this admirable deaf man developed his extraordinary faculties in direct proportion to the resistance offered him by the one he lacked, just the way a blind man in his eternal night develops the sharpness of his audible sense.

--Igor Stravinsky, quoted by violist Peter Yarbrough of the Alexander Quartet



What the New Testament is for Christians, Beethoven could be--and even is to a large extent--for those who strive after the humanitarian ethos. Is it perhaps that the human being is the subject of all he has to say?
 
The human being who in Bach lived, believed, suffered, and died sheltered but also confined within the strictly defined bounds of Protestant Christian existence, humble, bound to God in an objective order. The human being who in Mozart already enjoyed full freedom in the seraphic beauty of a perfect harmony, almost innocent, in spite of every refinement touching only in Don Giovanni the dark substratum of the world, hubris, and destruction, but in the confrontation of forces returning to the law.
 
But what is the human being in Beethoven? He is the entity entirely filled with consciousness of himself, the hazards of his existence, his suffering, his nobility, and his greatness. This man Beethoven, who was he?
 
Certainly no hero in the sense of the martial victor, no Achilles, radiant even in downfall, but a man pursued by the demons of his inmost being, searching for freedom, greatness, and above all love. And all wrung under the most adverse circumstances from humiliation and misery, and in the unimaginable loneliness to which deafness condemned him, without ever the sound of a loving voice to break through this barrier.
 
As “God gave him the power to say what he suffered,” he could only put all that white hot emotion, mute suffering, humiliation, and intimations of an ineffable sublimity into musical form. And so he transmuted in the forge of suffering the human means of expression into musical form, the strictest most crystalline form, relentlessly wrought into the most exact design. And then the miracle happens, that in this most pure, virile music all that stirs the heart of a human being is turned to speech: suffering, grief, loneliness, but also, and above all, the indescribable sweetness of consolation, happiness, dance, ecstasy carried to the bounds of mystical transport; from the Virgilian secular piety of the “Pastoral” Symphony and the ”Convalescent's hymn of thanks to the Godhead,” of the String Quartet, op. 132, to the visionary perception of a Father beyond the stars and the devotion of the Missa Solemnis. The entire span of the human heart and spirit is in that work, perceptible, communicable. There is appeal and reassurance, the courage to shoulder one's own destiny in the faith of the indestructible, invincible dignity which makes human beings what they are.
 
That is Beethoven for me.

--Eugen Jochem, in a note accompanying his RCO recording of the Missa Solemnis
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Thank you for the interesting observations.
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Barry, I have to thank you for dragging me in to yet another M7 obsession. Just kidding; for me this is the meaning of life and I was overdue.

I've been surveying available recordings and will offer a few observations. I started out by concentrating on the finale since it's always made the least sense to me. Now after all these years, it seems structurally solid, in a good performance. In some cases I've listened to most or all of the work, sometimes in order, sometimes not.

The performances that annoy me introduce tempo changes that Mahler didn't indicate. In the score, the tempo modifications are usually quite subtle. In a work that is inherently episodic, keeping steady tempos is essential. One might say that not many roses line the path traced by this symphony and we have no reason to stop and smell them.

When I go through one of these surveys, I rarely have a radical change of view but this time around I've noted some surprises. Some may admittedly owe to  memory that has not improved with age.

First, I'll note the excellence of the Kubelik/BRSO studio recording. His first movement is the only one I'm aware of that clocks in at under 20 minutes. It doesn't feel rushed but conveys a welcome sense of urgency. While the SQ is dry and dated, it is also unusually transparent and the woodwinds speak with a color and presence that embarrasses many newer recordings. The seating arrangement helps too, with antiphonally divided violin sections and low strings on the left. The remaining movements are in the same vein. Nachtmusik I is often played too slow (it is marked Allegro moderato), but moves along smartly here. And since it's a march, steady tempos really help it to work. The Scherzo is just terrific.

One surprise was how much I like Haitink/RCO, aside from that notorious crescendo in the penultimate bar. Like Kubelik he keeps the tempos moving along and applies a light touch with changes. The recording while dated is also detailed and transparent. Even the Scherzo is excellent, perhaps surprising because Haitink tended to mute the demonic elements in Mahler's music.

I'm not sure I had ever listened to Kondrashin/Leningrad all the way through. It's another standout, provided you can acclimate to the congested Soviet-era sonics.

I tried two movements of MTT/LSO (RCA) but went no farther because the SQ is nothing special, tempos are stretched around, and it doesn't feel contrapuntal.

I haven't listened all the way through the Boulez/Cleveland but the Finale is quite good. Perhaps the Emil Berliner remaster helps the SQ; on the original issue, it lacks presence and bite, as though we're listening from the lobby.

The Ozawa is not one of his better performances. He was usually among the most straightforward of conductors but frequent ritards repeatedly kill momentum. It doesn't help that the trumpets, and to a lesser extent the horns, tend to play a phrase where each note is accented as a smooth legato.

Levine/CSO is a very strong contender, with one caveat. He maintains momentum and the recording is better than many of the others in the set. The soft strokes on the tamtam in Nachtmusik I are wonderful, in the deep bass as they should be. My concern is with a too-slow Nachtmusik II clocking in at over 14 minutes. He doesn't mess with the pace but for me this movement works better at a more flowing tempo even if I'm not sure I'm on board with Boulez's breezy 10:38.

Jansons/BRSO is one of the strongest performances though the bells in the Finale are underwhelming.

I need to spend more time with Nott/Bamberg but his Finale is outstanding and in excellent SQ, although in that penultimate bar he plays a late-Haitinkesque sforzando rather than a diminuendo. Like Kubelik he seats the orchestra in the common 19th Century arrangement.

I'll be spending more time with these and a few other recordings in the coming days and will offer comments if I come up with anything that might be interesting.
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But there was a more recent M8 with Nelsons in Boston's Symphony Hall.

The start of Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9mcSX9LhrM
 
The end of Part II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PVwdS5kx_0
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Erik

You may be right. They had a Mahler Festival in Leipzig last year covering the entire cycle but with several conductors.

I agree that Nelsons/BSO might be more interesting for Mahler. It's been more than 30 years since they recorded Mahler commercially last time (with Ozawa).

John

PS GWH did a Mahler cycle (minus M3rd) with Chailly.


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Looking at the Gewandhausorchester's performance history in Leipzig and elsewhere, it appears Nelsons has only conducted Nos. 1, 2, 5, 6, & 8 during his time with the orchestra so far, with No. 4 upcoming in February (feat. Karg as soloist). The results you got from AI say the complete cycle has been recorded and highly regarded so it leaves me scratching my head a bit and wondering where the AI is pulling this information from.

There was a festival in Leipzig last year where a complete cycle was performed, but that was a combination of different conductors and orchestras. Nelsons conducted M2 and M8 in that series.

All things considered, I would personally rather hear a cycle out of Boston, as we haven't had much Mahler out of there at all since Ozawa's time. Their Shostakovich under Nelsons was mostly really great.
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Erik

It was Ai that told me the next installment in Bychko/CPO Mahler cycle will be the Third and it was confirmed. So, let's have our fingers crossed for the possible and potential Nelsons/GWH Mahler cycle^ I think it will be a very good cycle.

John

PS I like Nelsons' Leipzig Bruckner box set on DG very much. In particular, I think the B5th, 6th, and 8th are the best in the set and among the finest I've ever heard. I get that some critics, eg, DH, don't appreciate it all all. But they should realize it is different from the mainstream interpretation. Nelsons' is 'Wagnerian' Bruckner and he opts for blended - rather than distinctive - sound in Bruckner.
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