Webern's Symphony Op.21

[Leo K]

I have always been fascinated by Webern's Symphony.  The 1st movement alone sounds like an ongoing meditation on the first few bars of Mahler's 9th, and has added to my appreciation of Mahler's ear for orchestral sound and use of silence, or negative space, in general.

I am looking for great recordings of Webern's Op.21...I tend to prefer slow readings of the 1st movement.  The recordings I have already are the Boulez (on Sony) and the Inbal (on Denon). Karajan's version of this work was the first I ever heard, but I don't own it yet.  It's been years since I heard it.

Anyone else like this work and have recordings to recommend?

[barry guerrero]

Abbado recorded it with the Vienna Phil., but I think it's out-of-print. You can certainly get Boulez's remake with the Berlin Phil. That one seems pretty good to me. Sinopoli also recorded Webern's orchestral music with the Staatskapelle Dresden on Teldec.

I like your observation of Webern's "symphony" being an offshoot of the Mahler 9th - particularly the opening, with it's "arthymic heartbeat" rhythm. I very much like his orchestral "Variations", which is just a bit less sparse sounding, and gets a tad more heated in a couple of spots. Try the "Variations"; I think you'll like them.

Barry

[Leo K]

Cool, I'll try the Variations...I haven't really listened closely to that work as of yet.

I didn't know that Abbado recorded it...I'll try to track that one down.

[barry guerrero]

I'm looking at the Abbado now. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the symphony. It does have the following program:

Schoenberg: "A Survivor From Warsaw"

J.S. Bach/Webern:  Fuga (Riccercar) for six voices from "The Musical Offering (fully ochestratrated by Webern)

Webern:  Passacaglia for Orchestra, Op. 1; Six Pieces For Orchestra, Op. 6 (original version); Five Pieces For Orchestra, Op. 10; Variations For Orchestra, Op. 30

If you have any troubles finding this cheap, just let me know. I don't normally like to burn copies of recordings that are still available. But I think that this one is out of print. Check Amazon for cheap copies. But don't hesitate to contact me.

[barry guerrero]

I only have a burnt copy of the Boulez disc that does contain the Webern symphony. It's a cool program though. It also contains the Variations, as well as Webern's two lovely Cantatas. And let me tell you, you haven't lived until you've listened to fully adult choirs sing 12-tone melodies. Pop radio should be full of them. Anyway, here's the program:

Five Pcs. For Orch., op. 10; Three Orchestral Songs (these are beauties); Symphony, op. 21; Das Augenlicht, op. 26; Cantata #1; Variations For Orchestra, op. 30; Cantata #2, op. 31

[Leo K]

I only have a burnt copy of the Boulez disc that does contain the Webern symphony. It's a cool program though. It also contains the Variations, as well as Webern's two lovely Cantatas. And let me tell you, you haven't lived until you've listened to fully adult choirs sing 12-tone melodies. Pop radio should be full of them. Anyway, here's the program:

Five Pcs. For Orch., op. 10; Three Orchestral Songs (these are beauties); Symphony, op. 21; Das Augenlicht, op. 26; Cantata #1; Variations For Orchestra, op. 30; Cantata #2, op. 31

Is this with the BPO?  If so I haven't heard those!  I have the earlier set on Sony though...and yes!! The 12 tone choral works!  Those Choir works and songs are really out of this world.  Webern didn't really belong on this earth it seems.  I remember trying to figure out his songs during music theory classes, and really just being perplexed at his imagination.  I have alot of love for his music. 

I'll check for the Abbado disk...and I decided to buy the Karajan Second Vienesse School set first.  Thanks for the help, and I'll let you know how I do with the Abbado hunt.

[barry guerrero]

Yes, Boulez re-recorded all of the Webern works for DG. Indeed, they used the BPO for the bigger orchestral works. They're all pretty good.

Karajan's second Vienna school recordings are really quite good. Allegedly, he either paid to do those out of his pocket, or simply waived his own fee - something like that. The point being, it was a project he deeply believed in.

[Leo K]

I like your observation of Webern's "symphony" being an offshoot of the Mahler 9th - particularly the opening, with it's "arthymic heartbeat" rhythm.

Barry

It's fascinating...even the instrumentation is almost the same...horns...a harp...violas and cellos.  Good call on the "arthymic heartbeat" pace throughout.  Somehow Webern evokes the M9th while also structuring the notes into a "double four part canon in contrary motion" according to Rene Leibowitz, who also notes that the "instrumentation participates in the individualization of the various parts" of each canon.  I suppose this could be a result of having no home key or tonality to differentiate the 'melodic' lines?  What an alien music landscape this is.

I feel Webern's Symphony Op.21 would make an excellant coupling with the M9 in a concert or recording. 

[barry guerrero]

"I feel Webern's Symphony Op.21 would make an excellant coupling with the M9 in a concert or recording".

I agree! But it should go before M9, don't you think?

Barry 

[Leo K]

"I feel Webern's Symphony Op.21 would make an excellent coupling with the M9 in a concert or recording".

I agree! But it should go before M9, don't you think?

Barry 

I've been thinking about that.  When I receive the Karajan 2nd Viennese School set, I'm going to burn his performance of Op.21 at the end of his studio M9...I feel it might be more interesting to hear the effect of Webern's sound world appearing after the last dieing strains of the M9 Adagio...it may sound as if the M9 has been turned inside out.  Or maybe it will sound like the 'afterworld' of the M9.

On the other hand, the M9 will dwarf Op.21.

[Leo K]

Today I was thinking how Berg's Op.6 sounds like Mahler's 6th turned inside out.  I'm glad Gielen chose to include Berg's Op.6 on his M6 disk.

[barry guerrero]

"Today I was thinking how Berg's Op.6 sounds like Mahler's 6th turned inside out"

I've always made that association. I couldn't agree more!

[Leo K]

Well, I tried listening to Webern's Op.21 (the Karajan recording on DG) after a performance of the M9 (a horenstein live broadcast from April 1966) and it's a perfect fit.  It's almost like beginning the M9 all over again, except you realize the point-of-view has totally changed.  We arrive at the same mountain range with a new set of eyes.

I will next put the Webern in front of the M9 to see how that sounds.

[barry guerrero]

Wow, cool       .    .     .   I think that beats the daylights out of alternating movements Webern's "Six Pieces" with movements from Schubert's "Rosamunde".