Author Topic: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor  (Read 9234 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« on: December 04, 2013, 04:22:49 AM »
http://www.bambergsymphony.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Redaktionsupload/Audio/Mahler_7_Scherzo.mp3

Take a listen to how Nott really plays up the 'dragon/Fafner' part (growly tuba) at the 6 minute mark. The passage is nearly always underplayed, and this is the best I've yet to hear it. Also, notice how he expertly handles the tricky tempo changes at the 8 minute mark, going up to 9 minutes. It's very hard to get this part just right. Overall, very well done. It could use a bit more of the tam-tam at the climax towards the end.

Offline Leo K

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 06:13:27 AM »
Excellent execution! I really like what I'm hearing here.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 06:15:40 AM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 05:15:29 PM »
It's a difficult movement to do really well. Frankly, you could drop the scherzo and still have the world's greatest three movement symphony. It would end all that ridiculous arguing about movement order too. Anyway, thanks for listening to it.

Offline Leo K

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 05:38:49 PM »
Well, I ended up buying the recording (Amazon download) and been enjoying the the 1st and 2nd movts. since last night. It's really good, it makes more of an impression than the Papano M6 on first hearing. That's probably because I like that Nott takes the first movement faster than Papano and Zinman, almost the speed of Lenny's VPO 1st mov. I would think details would be lost and muddled but that's not the case here. The recording is fantastic. Details abound! The dynamics are vivid. The Scherzo of course inspired me to buy this M6 and it supports the 1st movt. and makes it stronger...two strong pillars to weigh down the andante and finale, which I've heard bits of so far.




Offline barry guerrero

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 06:58:44 PM »
Let us know your thought on the last two movements later on. Thanks.

Offline BeethovensQuill

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »
I have the recording and loved the 1st and second movements but i felt the andante was just a little rushed for me, some may like it that way but i love the big theme coming back towards the end and Nott rushes through that part, ive only listened to the finale once but i didnt connect with it on first listen.

I also have his new recording of the 8th which i love very much, for me Part 2 is very well done and the finale is the best ive heard, with great pacing and just sounding beautiful and barry will like that the Tam-Tams really do shine out at the end.  The other good thing is that in the final choral cadence i finally hear the female choir going up rather than hear the whole choir going back on the tonic.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 05:36:28 AM »
Great news. What I've heard of Nott's M8, just from small samples, sounds very promising.

Offline Leo K

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 09:19:46 PM »
Let us know your thought on the last two movements later on. Thanks.

Barry, the Andante moves along as the tempo marking says. Beautiful details except for the cowbells, which I didn’t hear well. The phrasing, like Nott’s M7, is particular and refined, but not fussy. Excellent lower end without loss of the highs. Climaxes bloom without being muddy. The finale is not over done rhetorically, but spooky as needed. 2 hammer blows, 1st not as strong as the 2nd blow. Instrumental details are naturally heard in that wide and deep soundstage. The performance reminds me of a combination of Karajan and Zinman, or even Bertini.  I would say, as a whole, Nott’s ideas fall into the “Haydn on Steroids” model. It’s not on the light side, but it never drags either. I think it’s rates very high on my “listen to again” list. I love it and recommend it to collectors of the M6.

I’m really looking forwards to Nott’s M8.


In terms of beauty and phrasing-design, the M6 and M7 are really REALLY good. The M6 only lacks the cowbells and some tam-tam action, which gets lost in the mix. Still, there are other details most other recordings miss, like the tuba growl in the Scherzo. The M7 reminds me of Rattles famous BPO performance of 1998(?) but not as dark. Nott’s M7 is played for beauty and I think this works very well for the 1st, 4th and finale movements. 

--Todd
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:41:05 AM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: scherzo from Nott's new M6 on Tudor
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 02:46:32 AM »
Thanks for the report. I'm real happy with the new dvd of M6 with Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus. Here's my five star review from Amazon:

5.0 out of 5 stars Chailly 'rethinks' M6 with this stunning live performance. December 12, 2013
By B. Guerrero
Format:DVD
Riccardo Chailly continues to convert formerly dour Leipzig into a modern day 'Mahlerville'. In the accompanying 'panel discussion' on the sixth symphony, Chailly states people on the street ask him when the next Mahler performance will be happening. Another commentator points out that there have been two back-to-back Mahler festivals in Leipzig. Wow! - as I've said before, this is a great time to be a Mahler enthusiast. Anyway, this is a really fine performance of Mahler six that, in my opinion, is even better than the already fine dvd issue of M6 that Claudio Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra put out just a few years ago. That said, no one would go wrong by either one. Let's talk about the differences between this one and Chailly's '80s audio recording for Decca with the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

In the accompanying panel discussion, Chailly states that he based his earlier Concertgebouw recording on Wilhelm Mengelberg's marked-up score (complete with metronome markings, which Mahler almost never used). As a result of that, the first movement is three minutes faster here than in Amsterdam! (22:30 vs. 25:30). I like the deep pitched cowbells better from the Concertgebouw percussion section, but they're perfectly adequate in Leipzig as well. There's definitely a more 'manic' energy to this Leipzig first movement. This is followed up with the Andante Moderato movement, whereas Chailly recorded M6 in scherzo/andante order in Amsterdam. So far, I'd call it a tie.

It's interesting to note that the timings for the slow movement are identical for both performances, even though the order has now been switched. I think the movement sounds a tad more spontaneous and 'heartfelt' here than in Amsterdam, but that may simply be a matter of 'live' vs. studio recording. Both are good (with great cowbells in Amsterdam - again). Slight edge to Leipzig, but not by much.

The scherzo is where we find Chailly's most radical 'rethink'. In the Decca recording, Chailly pretty much took the scherzo at the same tempo as the end of the first movement (which he already took a tad slower than usual). As a result, there was a sort of 'cubistic' feel to his earlier scherzo that may have better suited Adorno's description of the scherzo as being a, quote, "Laendler dance with a Polar Bear". Chailly now takes the scherzo at a very fast clip, with strong contrasts between fast and slow sections (the numerous variants of the trio section). As a result, this scherzo now times in at less than 12 minutes (vs. 13:20). I agree with Chailly's comment (from the panel discussion) that if you're going to place the scherzo third, then you have to do it at a tempo that's very different from the first movement. I'm not sure, however, why that same comment can't apply when performing M6 in scherzo/andante order. Advantage: Leipzig. I like this scherzo much more. Now the finale.

The booklet timing of 34:20 for the finale is deceptive, as there are several minutes of applause and soloist acknowledgments at the end of the same track. And that particular fact brings me to my one and only complaint: I think any dvd of Mahler 6 would be far more effective with a visual fade-out shortly after the symphony's audio fade-out. Let the screen go completely black for 20 seconds or so. Better yet (and more dramatic as well), turn the screen completely black at the symphony's final A-minor outburst - before the audio fade-out, in other words.

I really don't understand why musicians and recording companies feel so insecure, that they think it's necessary to show several minutes of ovation and self congratulations. Let Mahler have his say and then get out. Enough of that.

I would have to re-listen to the Decca finale to comment on any minor differences between the two. This Leipzig finale seems very similar to me. In both instances, Chailly uses a large wooden sound box and wooden hammer for the two hammer strokes (this is becoming the norm everywhere). And in both instances, Chailly elects not to employ the optional cymbals and tam-tam (large gong) to reinforce the second hammer stroke. In both instances, Chailly takes the final A-minor outburst at the very end of the symphony at a slower than usual tempo (I like it!). Chailly is good in both finales.

Given the additional, interesting panel discussion (available with English subtitles), I would recommend this Chailly dvd over the Abbado. But as I stated earlier, both are good. I like it that the panel discussion sticks to musical issues pertaining to the sixth symphony, and doesn't bother to rehash the same-old, tired biographical and autobiographical comments. Excellent picture and sound quality. Fully recommendable in every respect.

 

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