I ordered the Markus Stenz Mahler box

[barry guerrero]

In the Nott vs. Stenz department, I decided to go with the complete Stenz cycle. For one thing, it's relatively cheap. But I also have a cd player that struggles with sacd hybrid discs. I do have an sacd player, but it's sitting in my garage. I use these big, fancy boom boxes made by Bose (I own two of them). I've become lazy because they sound so good with so little effort. My other player doesn't have a problem with sacd hybrids, but it's nice to have great things in both hybrid and 'redbook' formats. Now I can hear the end of Stenz's incredible 8th on any player at any time, or his equally incredible finale to Mahler 7.

I'm actually liking it that BR Klassik isn't issuing their great sounding items in hybrid format. My Haitink/BRSO M3 should be arriving in a few weeks (been listening to it on Spotify).

Barry

[waderice]

Barry, did you already possess any single symphony issues from the Stenz cycle, particularly any of the hybrid SACDs?  If so, what ones did you have, and which ones do you recommend (other than M7 and M8)?  I've had both the Stenz and Nott complete cycles for a little while now, but have been so busy that I haven't yet gotten around to listen to any of them.  If you particularly recommend both of Stenz' M7 and M8, I might get both of them as single-issue hybrid SACDs.

As you probably know, the Stenz complete cycle box is regular CD, whereas the Nott is hybrid SACD.

Wade

[barry guerrero]

Yes, I chose the Stenz box due to the fact that they are regular CD's, and because of the price. Some cd players get confused by sacd hybrids. I feel that Stenz is more consistent over the entire cycle. Nott is more 'hit and miss', to my ears. Sound quality is generally better with Nott. I can't comment on the sacd layers.

For Stenz, I currently possess "Des Knaben Wunderhorn", M4, M7 and M8. All of those are good, if not great. Stenz is consistently on the fast side, but he has the best finale to M7 I've yet to hear (with a very good Nachtmusik II preceding it). He also has the very best ending to M8 I've yet to hear as well.

That said, the ending of Nott's M8 is nearly as good and has a better sounding organ. With Nott, I have M2, M4 (good soprano), M7 and M8. I did own Nott's M6 for a while, but a couple of 'interpretive' things about it led me to discard it. Namely, the tempi weren't varied enough between the opening march and the second subject; the so-called "Alma" theme. And second, the brief 'false victory parade' towards the end of the finale was too soft in the horns and percussion, thus rendering it too 'impressionistic' for my liking. By the way, I love the Simone Young/Hamburger Philharmoniker M6 on Oehms. It has an awesome finale.

I've kept Nott's M2 because it's one of the few where you can really hear the series of tam-tam strokes (7 in total) at the climax of the long march section in the finale. It does bother me that there are no extra tracks in his finale, because I often times do skip the soft choral parts (pretty but dull), just to save on time.

I did own Nott's M9, which is really quite good. But I already had too many two-disc versions of M9, and sold it off once I received the single disc Haitink/BRSO M9. I could have easily lived with the Nott M9, but I already had various Bernstein and Karajan versions, plus Dudamel/DG for the gorgeous playing of the L.A. Phil. I also have a live Ozawa/BSO M9, although the Bernstein/BSO beats them all.

In regards to Ivan Fischer/Channel Classics, I've got their M2 and M4 (both are excellent). M1 is also very good, but I'm picking up the Nezet-Seguin/BRSO one on plain cd. Fisher's M6 and M9 are just OK, while his M5 is a complete dud (in my book). It's interesting that C.C. has delayed or cancelled issuing an M7 with Fischer.

As far as complete box sets go, I currently have just the Boulez/DG. I sold off my Bertini box, but probably should have kept it. The Stenz will be a nice addition.

[Prospero]

I'm curious to know why a higher resolution format is not desirable given the range of complexity and nuance in all great music, and for this forum for Mahler.

I know there are some debates and exceptions, but my experience is that with well-mastered versions and with detailed reproducing equipment SACD has more information and atmosphere and nuance than the equivalent CDs. It does take sensitive players, amplification, and speakers, but I find more there in most SACD versions.

I have read that DSD streaming or downloads are even more detailed, but I have not yet linked up with such sources. And I'm not sure how much of the repertory and performances discussed on this list are available that way.

Just looking for the best quality of sound available for Mahler and beyond.

Best,

Tom in Vermont

[John Kim]

Although I like Stenz's way with M4-M8, I can't warm to the M9, nor the M2. His M9th is an unfortunate marriage of inadequate playing and sonics plus some odd touches; just sample a few spots in I. Luckily, the Adagio is excellent as is the M10: Adagio. Stenz led a very good live concert of M9th with a Dutch orchestra and it's pity that we got the Oehms recording instead.

[barry guerrero]

Thanks John. Hopefully Stenz gets to record more Mahler with a better orchestra someplace. I'm not surprised that his M10 Adagio is real good. Is it just a funny coincidence that the weakest ones in Stenz's Oehms cycle are the ones that I'm not always so crazy about either: M2, M5 and M9? There's some great stuff in this cycle though.

The M1/III may be the best I've ever heard. You can actually hear the written horn figures in the coda to M3/I (he holds back the trumpets and timpani a bit, which I like). He makes that coda really exciting, not just loud. As I've mentioned before, the last two movements of M7 are tops, and Stenz even out-does Bertini with the ending of M8. I also really like Stenz's quicker than normal tempo for  M4/II.

Tom, of course higher rez is more desirable. But I already have some of the Stenz cycle on sacd/cd hybrids, along with various hybrids from Jonathan Nott and Ivan Fischer. As I had mentioned before, I have at least one player that has trouble starting hybrid discs. I don't want to make things more difficult for my car cd player either. It's very convenient having the entire Stenz cycle readily at hand, able to play on any player. The same is true for my Boulez Mahler box (which are remastered, to some degree).

[ChrisH]

I'm curious to know why a higher resolution format is not desirable given the range of complexity and nuance in all great music, and for this forum for Mahler.

I know there are some debates and exceptions, but my experience is that with well-mastered versions and with detailed reproducing equipment SACD has more information and atmosphere and nuance than the equivalent CDs. It does take sensitive players, amplification, and speakers, but I find more there in most SACD versions.

I have read that DSD streaming or downloads are even more detailed, but I have not yet linked up with such sources. And I'm not sure how much of the repertory and performances discussed on this list are available that way.

Just looking for the best quality of sound available for Mahler and beyond.

Best,

Tom in Vermont

Tom,

If you are truly looking for the best available sound for Mahler and beyond I would HIGHLY recommend looking at putting money into a measurement microphone. Then you can get into fixing the acoustics or your room. This will yield infinitely more reward than anything dealing with formats or equipment. With a $75.00 USB mic and a free program called REW, you can actually see what you are hearing from your speakers. Generally, it's quite shocking. Outside of speakers, room treatments are the best thing you can spend money on with audio.

Chris

[barry guerrero]

That makes sense. I knew a retired engineer in Palo Alto who spent decades 'fine tuning' his listening space (combined with an awesome stereo set-up). The result was that his incredible stereo sounded exactly the same, regardless of where you were standing or sitting in that area. Unbelievable. You could move freely about the space and still be enveloped by the same wonderful sound.

Think of people who go out and hear fabulous speakers; drop a bunch of cash and take them home, only to be disappointed by how they sound in their home environment. It happens all the time.

The sound may not be great, but I'm sure enjoying the Stenz/Gurzenich performances. Only the M2 has SLIGHTLY disappointed so far. I'm up to M6, and that's pretty darn good as well. I haven't checked out M5 because it's my least favorite of the Mahler symphonies.

p.s.  I've finished Stenz's M6. I think Stenz does the 'darkness to light' trilogy of symphonies 6-8 better than any other single conductor - well, certainly the best since Bernstein.

[Damfino]

I have read that DSD streaming or downloads are even more detailed, but I have not yet linked up with such sources. And I'm not sure how much of the repertory and performances discussed on this list are available that way.

Just looking for the best quality of sound available for Mahler and beyond.

Best,

Tom in Vermont

Tom, I have downloaded some HD albums, mainly of Sinatra in either mono or stereo. One thing that is disappointing about HD classical downloads is that they do not appear to be multichannel, but only stereo (unless someone offers them and I do not know about them).

[Prospero]

Thanks for various thoughts about formats and sound. I tend to think the more detail the better.

I supposed we all have our ways of finding good sound. I am enchanted by the tonality, nuance, and detail of rebuilt Quad ESL57s.

But hopefully everyone has a satisfying experience with their approaches.

Best,

Tom in Vermont