future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!

[Settembrini]

I guess that's just it, Gatti's music-making isn't exactly my cup of tea, but then again, unfortunately most of the RCO's regular conductors aren't (Fischer, Harding, Haitink, and, worst of all, that ridiculous clown Nelsons). On the upside: at least I don't need to renew my subscription (is there really anyone out there who seriously wants to see Haitink sleepwalk through yet another Mahler 9?). But I'm getting off topic here.. 

[barryguerrero]

hmmmm   .     .    .   leaving Haitink out of the conversation for a second, Fischer, Harding and Nelsons are all RELATIVELY young, and probably still have things to learn. I NEVER liked Simon Rattle in his younger years, but now he's become something of a 'wise, old sage'. I can listen to him now. Look at it this way: regardless of who's waving the stick, you're still hearing the Concertgebouw!!!  How many people get THAT opportunity on a semi-regular basis?

And even if one might be slightly tired and jaded of less than perfect Mahler performances (because of the conductors), at least you're somewhere where you CAN hear Mahler - good Mahler at that - on a fairly regular basis. Chin up!

Barry

One last comment for BOTH of you guys. Regarding Berg's "Three Pieces"   .    .    .   how would you know? (meaning, how can you tell!). I've heard lots of recordings of it , all of them slightly different, but I've never heard one that struck me as poor. Seems to me that a performance  that had exaggerated dynamics and tempi, would also be a performance that that music is specifically looking for! In other words, I can think of few more "expressionistic" works than Berg's 3 Pieces. I want to hear it for myself.

[Settembrini]

Hi Barry,
Thanks for reminding me that hearing te RCO on a regular basis is a privilege! But.. they can be a frustrating bunch. Unlike the Berlin Philharmonic, an orchestra I was also priviliged to hear when I lived in Berlin for a few years (by the way, I agree with you on Rattle), the RCO can be undisciplined, sloppy and uninspired when they don't care for the conductor (which is quite often), and yet they seriously marketed themselves as 'the best orchestra in the world,' which is a stupid title anyway, for a few years. No reason to chin up though, as Haitink once said, the RCO's best instrument is their hall, and the playing is always of a reasonably high standard (unlike the programming unfortunately..) and sometimes more (their Elgar 2 under Gardiner for instance was outstanding).

As far as Berg is concerned, I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you study the score and have an understanding of the idiom of the Second Vienna School, it becomes clear that Gatti is completely clueless. He ignores most tempo indications, he highlights the obvious melodical lines and ignores all the structurally important ones, he doesn't know the difference between haupt- and nebenstimme, he seems oblivious to the fact that much of this music is a waltz and for all his impressive gestures on the podium, he can't keep the orchestra together at times. Of course, at the end an equally cleuless audience gives the man a standing ovation (as they always do in Amsterdam) because he conducted it without a score.

[barryguerrero]

"and yet they seriously marketed themselves as 'the best orchestra in the world,' which is a stupid title anyway, for a few years"

Yeah, I know. I can relate - I had to live through the same nonsense with the Chicago Symphony in the 1970's.

I'll check out the Berg. I'm sure you're right. It might just be me who can't tell the difference. I might have been one of those ones giving a standing ovation, simply because I like the piece and it so seldom gets programmed.

[Settembrini]

There's nothing wrong with a standing ovation, but audiences in Amsterdam ALWAYS give a standing ovation. They think it's part of concert etiquette instead of a sign of appreciation, like in Germany or France (I don't know how it works in the US). Anyway, I always feel like giving Berg's opus 6 a standing ovation (the third piece, the march, has to be one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century), but not Gatti and his sloppy orchestra. Is it really still a rarity in the US, or SF at least?

By the way, at least on purely technical terms, wasn't the CSO under Solti the 'greatest orchestra of the world..?' (I only have recordings to go by, never heard the CSO in a live performance and only saw Solti at the very end of his career in Amsterdam with a very disapointing Lied von der Erde, Sacre and Also Sprach Zarathustra). Solti's CSO recording of Wagner preludes and overtures is a thing to marvel at (to these Concertgebouw accustomed ears at least..)

[waderice]

I heard Solti conduct the CSO in Washington, DC many years ago in Zarathustra while they were on tour.  I do recall that the brass did sound quite loud, but that was before all the "bru ha ha" came out that Solti was the problem, both with the loud brass and diminished ability to decently lead a concert.  I also have an old VHS tape in storage of the CSO conducted by Solti in Zarathustra, and when I played this tape of the opening for a now deceased friend who was a Horn player, he exclaimed "OUT OF TUNE!" while the timpani thumped out its notes.

It was only a few years later that musical circles started saying that the "Solti-ization" of the CSO was complete, and that people started getting turned off by the sound that the orchestra had taken on.

What would be nice for us all is to turn on our FM radios to our favorite classical station and happen to tune in at the right time, just after a familiar piece of music has started playing, without knowing who the conductor or the orchestra are, and let our ears and musical judgment take over to determine whether or not the performance is decent.  Have we become so jaded about certain individual conductors and orchestras to let our preconceived notions affect our musicianship?

Wade

[Freddy van Maurik]

This is turning out to be a very interesting conversation!

Wade makes a fair point. But: I've tried some 'blind' listening not too long ago, and my respons to various performances was almost without exception exactly the same as when I knew who performed it. For example: upon hearing Mahler by Maazel, I almost instantly want to turn it off.
And as for Haitink: given the recent M3-recording from Bayern, I'd say he still may present a solid M9, despite his age.

Freddy

[Settembrini]

Yes, Haitink's Mahler is never less than solid, but I'll take Maazel's idiosyncrasies over boring old Haitink's solidity any time. But I understand that, as an admirer of Maazel's Mahler and Maazel in general, I'm expressing a minority opion.. (I won't even get started on Sinopoli )

[Roland Flessner]

The Haitink/BRSO M8 is superb.

[waderice]

The Haitink/BRSO M8 is superb.

M8?  I think you mean M3.  Haitink has stated that he doesn't like to perform M8, though he recorded it once with RCAO.

Wade

[barryguerrero]

Twice. There's a video on Youtube of a later performance that's really quite good. I was surprised - it sounded as though he really liked the piece. Maybe it'll come out on a dvd someday.

I do like that Haitink/BRSO M3, although I think he could have boosted the tempo in a few spots (needs pep pills). I gave it a solid 4 stars at Amazon.