Hampson/MTT/SFSO "DLvdE" - o.m.g., YUCK!!

[barry guerrero]

Well, one recording where David certainly did not exaggerate a thing is this new "Das Lied von der Erde" with Thomas Hampson, M. Tilson-Thomas, and the SFSO. In my opinion, it's far, FAR worse than David stated. Hampson is just outright terrible. And as good as the orchestral playing is from a purely technical standpoint (I don't think that their upper strings are much to write home about, actually), there's almost zero gong (tam-tam) during the funereal, orchestral interlude in "der Abschied". Ironically, you can hear the gong just fine in the following stanzas, where there's nothing but the low voice; soft gong strokes, and a quiet pedalpoint note in the bass (Er steig vom Pferd and reichte ihm den Trunk des Abschieds dar    .     .    .  und auch warum, warum es musste sein). So I don't get it. The ending is pretty overblown too, just as David states (it's actually supposed to be sung softly, if possible).

I'm hugely disappointed in this now almost complete cycle from my hometown orchestra. It started out in a rather promising way, but has descended downhill ever since. Frankly, I saw plenty of red flags clear back at MTT's M6 that was garnished with so much praise. To my mind, the very best item, so far, is the "Das Klagende Lied". That was actually recorded by RCA back in the 1990s. His M7 won plenty of praise, but I don't agree with that either. While the finale is pretty good (nice tempo relationships), the two Nachtmusik movements possess almost zero "atmosphere" - at the very least, certainly realized far better in any number of other places - and the allegro passages of the first movement are just ridiculously fast. Why not make the first movement the finale, and the finale the first movement? Let's hope that MTT hasn't tricked-out his M8 over the last few years.

And while the SFSO seems to keep improving from a purely technical standpoint, the sound of the orchestra keeps getting thinner and more decimated by the moment. "Denuded" might be the best description. They're performing an all Bernstein program this week, which is just exactly what the sound of the orchestra has become perfect for. When I heard them do M7 live, it sounded like a concerto for trumpets accompanied by a Broadway pit band. I couldn't believe that this was the same orchestra that had realized M7 so thoroughly for Edo DeWaart, just less than 20 years ago. So I'll continue to swim upstream by registering my continued disappointment in this project. Too bad, because the packaging is exquisite (except that the darn booklets don't fit in properly).

Perhaps this Mahler cycle is a bit like S.F. itself: all facade with little substance behind it (but what a beautiful facade it can be! - on nice days).

Barry Guerrero

Since the tenor is pretty good, as Dave points out, I would probably give this recording a 5/9 rating. 6/9 at most.

[Dave H]

OK, maybe I was being a little too nice--sorry! Totally agree that the Klagende Lied is the best thing in the set so far (though it was recorded for RCA), though I liked 2, 4, and 9 quite a bit too, and the First was much better on disc than it was when I heard it live. I really can understand anyone being irritated with MTT's somewhat narcissistic, fussy phrasing (which comes and goes, but is particularly bad in Nos. 5 and 6), and the surround sonics aren't very good, but in normal stereo I think these versions sound pretty decent given their live provenance.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

I probably am over-reacting because I live here, and had greater hopes for this ongoing S.F. project. It truly has become disappointing for me. Frankly, I think that MTT is going to have a real problem, now that he's finished his Mahler cycle already. I'm of the opinion that we need a change here in S.F., but I'm probably still in the minority. I certainly don't contribute any money to the SFSO, so who am I want to want a change of regime?

[Dave H]

I would say that you're far more qualified to judge these things that the people who DO contribute big bucks to the SFSO! You make an excellent point. MTT is a 'known quantity.' Everyone knows what he does well--American and 20th century music, the Russian romantics, French impressionists, and a few other things. We may forget that early in his career he recorded a complete Beethoven cycle with the ECO--one of the least interesting on disc. He's getting up there in years. Traditionally the "grand old men" go for the German standards: Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner. I don't know how he conducts them now, not having heard him in those composers for many years, but does anyone care? And from our discussions before I know he seems not to have a knack for putting together consistently interesting programs. He might be just the ticket elsewhere, but he may very well have outlived his usefulness in San Francisco.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

.    .    .   he could always become Abbado II, and do the Mahlers all over again (and I'm cringing as I squeek this out!  ).

[Amphissa]

 

Hey, leave the Russian romantics out of this. Of that repertoire, has recorded only a couple of pieces by Tchaikovsky, one old accompaniment to a Rachmaninoff piano concerto, and a shot at Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet. (Yes, he has recorded Stravinsky, but I don't think many would include Stravinsky in with the Russian Romantics.) So, let's leave well enough alone and not give him any ideas, eh? The last thing I want to hear is MTT doing collections of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rubinstein, Taneyev, etc. He just doesn't have the aptitude for them.

How about Bruckner! We need another Bruckner cycle, and now that he's finishing up Mahler, this is the perfect time!

 

[Dave H]

He's recorded a good bit more than that in Tchaikovsky, and it's mostly very good:
Orchestral Suites 2-4
Manfred
Nutcracker
Symphony No. 1
Symphony No. 4 (documentary)
Swan Lake
Violin Concerto

And Prokofiev (aside from Romeo and Juliet):
Symphonies Nos. 1 and 5
Lt. Kije Suite
Love for 3 Oranges Suite
Overture in B major

Dave H

[Amphissa]

Well, he did a good job with the ballet music and suites of Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev, but we've been spared most of the symphonies and concertos. I have the 4th Symphony documentary, and would not characterize the performance as being "very good." I had forgotten that he accompanied Joshua Bell on the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, which I do own. I saw Bell several times in concert in NY when I lived there, and as he is not among my favorites, I have not listened to the recording much, but I do remember that the Berlin Philharmonic is presented in good SACD sound.

Having lived in SF 6 years, the years when MTT first came on board there, I attended enough of his concerts to lose interest in his attempts at the romantics. He does a fine job with more modern music, and has a real aptitude for Stravinsky. Attending the SFO staged production of "Le Rossignol" and "Oedipus Rex" a couple of years ago during a return visit to San Francisco was a real treat.

How about instead he take on a cycle of David Diamond's orchestral music, which deserves recordings by a fine orchestra in excellent audio? I think he could be an outstanding advocate for Diamond's underrated symphonies. Or Martinu? Or if you want Russian, Lyatoshinsky?

[barry guerrero]

I totally agree with what you say here, Amphissa. It seems to me that MTT could have put his best talents to work on any number of other deserving composers who are under-served on CD, rather than just another Mahler cycle (and admittedly, it's the not the worst one by any means). For example, I would have loved to have see him rerecord Tchaikovsky's "Manfred" in Davies Hall, with its decent organ and all. And why not a live recording from his concert performances of Rimsky's complete "Mlada"? (or was it one of Rimsky's other big works?). There are just tons of other things he could have done that would have been far more useful.

Barry

[neikenho7]

I absolutley do not get the "yuck" component after hearing this recording. I personally do not prefer two male vocalists in this work; however this recording is most definitely not in the "yuck" category. And as Mr. Hurwitz has claimed that Mr. Hampson is underpowered is ridiculous to say the least. Their are other vocal issues in this performance, but this is not one of those. I have read this board for a while and I get that Barry (a low level sales clerk) likes to monopolize things here, until his friend David (a wannabe percussionist) came aboard and put him in his place. Most of the rest here fall in line.  (some nice exceptions of course) I find it interesting how group think the opinions are on message boards such as these. 

However, I do agree with the "dull as dishwater" appraisal of Zinman's latest. I just recently compared it to Mackerras and Herbig, and wow it was really lacking. Part of it is the recording perspective, which is somewhat distant, but mostly it falls on the interpretation.

[barry guerrero]

You folks don't need to listen to me, or anybody else, reading somebody the riot act. I just decided to delete that whole reply. It just isn't worth the negative energy. All I can say to this person is this:  if this site makes you so unhappy, please go lurk somewhere else. Enough said.

Barry