Author Topic: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7  (Read 11410 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« on: July 29, 2008, 05:41:27 AM »
I've listened through Gergiev's LSO M7 twice now. While I certainly won't call it "the best" in my collection (I like the 7th), it's very much a welcomed addition for me. The tempi are definitely on the fast side - 72 minutes in total. As with the Gergiev's M6 and M1, there's a fair amount of bluster in the louder passages. But it's also easy to detect a guiding intelligence behind all that bluster. For example, in the back half of the first movement, Gergiev really plays up the bizarreness of Mahler's writing. It's as though  Mahler were making parody of late romantic music; the over-bloated Austro-Hungarian Empire; and, himself (really loud cymbal crashes throughout this passage). But he then slows down greatly for the two measures that have an obvious funeral dirge rhythm in the drums and low brass (while the horns play the main theme in their middle and lower registers). This two-bar dirge is located just before the final peroration near the end of the movement. Anyway, this is a truly astute touch on Gergiev's part (and a big complaint I had about the MTT/SFSO M7 - the fact that he just blazed through the same two bars).  Earlier on, Gergiev/LSO do a really nice job with the contrasting, moonlit episode that occupies the center of the movement. It's certainly done far better than on MTT/SFSO (and yes, I prefer MTT's earlier LSO M7 to his S.F. one).

What I find really interesting is Gergiev's tempo relationship between the first Nachtmusik (2nd movement) and the scherzo. He takes the first Nachtmusik very swiftly; a bit less than 14 minutes. At times, it sounds more than a bit impatient, such as the brief "tango" passage towards the end of the movement (a sultry tango melody in the cellos, accompanied by tango rhythms from everyone else). But while Gergiev's Nachtmusik I moves in a fairly flowing 4/4, his scherzo moves at a relatively slow 1 beat-to-the-bar (if you were beating in three; then yes, it would be faster than Nachtmusik I). In other words, Gergiev heeds Mahler's instruction not to take the scherzo too swiftly. It's an interesting switch.

In contrast, both Abbado and Barenboim take over 16 minutes for Nachtmusik I (wonderfully atmospheric at this slower pace), but then speed up greatly for the scherzo. I think Gergiev's approach makes the scherzo sound bigger and more important in the grand scheme of things. He also doesn't have to slow down greatly for the second subject - a frequent happening that Mahler doesn't really ask for (oboe melody accompanied by strange sounding trills). Perhaps it's not an improvement, but it is an interesting switch.

Within this scherzo, Gergiev does nail many of Mahler's deliberate sound effects, such as the nasty snarls from the tuba (scary things popping up out of nowhere in the night), and the two famous snap pizzicatos that are the true climax of this movement. I sense that this is what Mahler really was looking for in this shadow dance of a movement. I really like the last two movements under Gergiev's direction.

Both Nachtmusik II and the finale are quite fast (11:45 and 16:13). I really like these tempi. Nachtmusik II is lent more the atmosphere of an Italian serenade than usual (sufficient mandolin here), allowing for a perfect transition into Gergiev's blistering finale. While Kondrashin/Concertgebouw is more cleanly played (also very fast), Gergiev brings out more of the cowbells and deepbells towards the end of finale. The whimsical passage with the simultaneous  bass drum and cymbal strokes is terrific. My only complaint is a minor one: the LSO's Paiste tam-tam speaks too slowly for many of the rapid strokes that happen in the finale (Paistes are used almost exclusively in London, by the way). A good Wuhan tam-tam has a clear advantage in M7.

Anyway, say what you will about Gergiev, he at least plays to the strengths of the LSO - the one band that has always been considered to be the sleek, lean race car amongst London's five full-time symphony orchestras. When I was much younger - several decades ago, obviously - I dreamed of hearing or owning an awesome Mahler 7th from the LSO. "Star Wars" had just hit the big silver screen, and I wanted to hear that Star Wars brass section in this music. Well, the final results may not be any better - or even the equal - of those that you get in Amsterdam, New York, Chicago, or Berlin on truly great days, but it is fun to hear the LSO's brilliant brass and percussion have such a field day at Mahler's expense. At the very least least, I'm sure that Mahler would cheer such a fiery presentation of his most brilliant finale.

Timings are I - 20:47; II - 13:43 (very fast); III - 9:07; IV - 11:45; V - 16:13
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 06:10:02 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline alpsman

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 06:53:15 AM »
Quote
I dreamed of hearing or owning an awesome Mahler 7th from the LSO.

Actually I have heard LSO in M7 with Tilson Thomas in 2000. That was fantastique performance. And I believe it's because of MTT, whom I heard with SFSO and I am conviced about his artistry.
On the other hand I don't care for Lso or the other British orchestras. I have heard them all in many ocassions and they didn't made much impression to me as VPO,BPO,RCOA,SFSO,BRSO etc. The best british I had heard was Birmingham orchestra under Rattle in 1994, not in Mahler.

Offline alpsman

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 06:57:55 AM »
Wow two stars. ;D
I must celebrate this,Viennese style, with some great Mahler and melange Und sachertorte or apfelstrudel.   ;D ;D

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 08:15:28 AM »
Generally, I very much agree with your position on British orchestras in relation to others that you mention. I'm not a huge fan of the present day Philharmonia, for example. Then again, clear a path for the LSO to run the 40 meter dash (whatever) on a day that they happen to feel like running, and you just might experience some pure dynamite. Sorry to speak in cliches, but it happens to be true.

I don't know, I'm just not taken with MTT's S.F.S.O. recording of M7. It seems very mannered and disjointed to me. I saw him do it live in S.F., and I really hated that performance. He got such a lean, "Broadway pit band" sound out of the SFSO, that the entire performance sounded like a concerto for trumpet section and orchestra. Back in the early or mid '80s, I saw De Waart give a far better sounding performance of M7 in S.F. I think De Waart was rather underrated.

Barry
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 08:36:57 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline alpsman

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 09:43:58 AM »
Barry, you describe very graphically the concert you attend with MTT-SFSO-M7, and if you are right it must be terrible. I haven't hear M7 with MTT-SF although i have the cd for long time( it's still sealed. I prefer to listen Mahler in small doses.)
In the concert i really liked Thomas and SF played an excellent La Mer and Tchaikovsky R+J and Schostakovich 9.
As for De Waart I completely agree: He is underated overall. I have nice Mahler and Wagner and Rachmaninov with him.

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 05:14:02 PM »
Excellant review Barry...can't wait to hear this M7!

Sounds like my cup of tea...I prefer a Nachtmusik I that moves along.

--Todd

Offline sperlsco

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 11:24:06 PM »
I've played a radio rip of the Gergiev M7 a couple of times as background music in my office, and it indeed sounds interesting.  I'll hold off on making any real listener judgements until the commercial release of the SACD.  You made some comparisons to the MTT/SFSO, which is NOT one of my favorites (although I love MTT/LSO).  The MTT/SFSO NachtmusikI just seems to lack musicality at MTT's chosen tempi.  Gergiev is more convincing, even though he is faster overall.  I find Gergiev's Scherzo to be on the fast-side of average (8'50" by my count).  I usually consider 10'+ to be the slower and moodier ones.  In fact Gergiev's tempi reminds me of Barenboim, in that it is faster, slightly off-balance, and a little scary.  Also like Barenboim, Gergiev's NachtII is a little faster than my preference (usually in the 13'-14' range for me), but I think it fits in well with his overall conception. 
Scott

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 07:55:13 PM »
I heard that BBC Music Magazine gave a rave review:

"Right from the start, with those dark, dragging rhythms, there's a
sense that something special is afoot here....But this [live]
performance is so much more than an intellectual justification of
Mahler's 'problem' symphony....And yet, driven and grittily intense
though his direction often is, it isn't ruthlesss...The Seventh Symphony
is also the nearest Mahler ever came to writing a concerto for
orchestra, and the virtuosity and sensitivity of the LSO...is a
continual exhilarating delight....The recording makes sure we hear it
all, while thoroughly taming the Barbican Hall's tendency to overload in
climaxes....I can't think of another recording of this symphony that not
only brings so many of its extraordinary features to life, but
ultimately balances them so satisfyingly."  Five stars for performance,
four for sound.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 03:42:59 AM »
I know that Dave is not terribly thrilled with Gergiev's M7. I think that the second movement (first Nachtmusik) is a "throw-away". But I thought that the second half of the first movement was very good, beginning from the quiet, "moonlit" central episode. I like that he made the last several minutes of the first movement sound so bizarre and deranged. I also like his last three movements very much.

 I compared this recording back-to-back with the Kondrashin/Concertgebouw one. Both are very similar in terms of timings, but very different in terms of their sound. As usual, the Concertgebouw woodwinds and percussion - particularly the timpani - are outstanding. But the Gergiev M7 obviously has the bigger dynamic range, and I really like the way Gergiev handles some of the variation passages in the finale. In particular, the variation with the simultaneous bass drum & cymbal strokes is terrific. That may sound like a small thing, but it's a section that gets glossed over in many, MANY recordings of the work. And although the LSO woodwinds sometimes get buried over, I love their brass section - particularly the horns. Sorry, but I'll take the LSO brass section over the CSO's anyday, where the trumpets and trombones are frequently too loud (by way of making  little or no distinction between different gradations of forte). The Gergiev M7 is not my favorite by any means, but it's still a "keeper" for me.

By the way, I was the first one to throw around "concerto for orchestra" as a description for the 7th on a public site. I'm sure others thought of it too though.

Barry
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 03:54:35 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline akiralx

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 09:04:13 AM »
Generally, I very much agree with your position on British orchestras in relation to others that you mention. I'm not a huge fan of the present day Philharmonia, for example.
Barry

Actually I heard the Philharmonia give an absolutely superb performance of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique at the weekend - brilliant playing but the hero was Esa-Pekka Salonen who carried the whole performance on his back, a wonderfully red-blooded interpretation.

The concert was also notable for a fine Beethoven Fourth Concerto from Helene Grimaud - which was marred by the collapse of an elderly audience member in the choir seats during the closing bars of the slow movement.  Salonen stopped the performance and even called out 'Is there a doctor in the house?'  There were two luckily, and after a brief delay they continued with the finale.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 05:33:46 PM »
That was a shame, but there usually are doctors attending symphony concerts. Sometimes they're quite old themselves.

I'm glad to hear that the Philharmonia turned in a great concert. They received only so-so receives when they last played here in S.F. That doesn't mean too much, because any traveling orchestra can have an off night, or just be bogged down by fatigue. It may also be that neither Sinopoli or Zander can get best out of them when it comes to Mahler. So, we'll see what Salonen can do for them.

Barry
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 05:36:08 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline akiralx

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Re: B.G. listens to Gergiev/LSO M7
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2008, 08:36:48 AM »
I'm glad to hear that the Philharmonia turned in a great concert. They received only so-so receives when they last played here in S.F. That doesn't mean too much, because any traveling orchestra can have an off night, or just be bogged down by fatigue. It may also be that neither Sinopoli or Zander can get best out of them when it comes to Mahler. So, we'll see what Salonen can do for them.

Barry

Yes, hopefully Salonen can galvanise them - they seemed to like his Berlioz interpretation, briefly refusing to stand to let him take the applause.  The concertmaster played the closing bars with such sweep that he almost flew off the stage - probably a concern to the front rows as he is 6' 5" and conservatively weighs in at 300 pounds...

 

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