Mahler Fifth Symphony with the 1st horn playing centerstage--opinions?

[sbugala]

Hey Guys,
     With the Fifth Symphony leading off the SLSO's season this week, a friend on another board posted a blurb from Chailly's M5 program notes:

At the first performance of the Fifth in England in 1945, the horn soloist sat front of stage alongside the leader of the orchestra and it could well be that this represented a performing tradition from the Mahler era itself: [Willem] Mengelberg's conducting score too lends support to this supposition."

What are people's thoughts on this? (I suppose this is only for the scherzo). For me, I find it rather gimmicky and spurious.  Perhaps I"m biased against the whole idea because Rattle seems to have resurrected this, and I generally have an unfavorable view of his Mahler.  More importantly, for Mahler, a guy who seems to have left behind very specific instructions  in his various scores, (bells up, play offstage, with greatest vehemence, etc.), if he wanted the 1st horn up front, it seems he would've just said so.  

Another friend, whose opinion I trust on music more than anyone else pointed out that you might as well put the first trumpet up there for the first movement too.  

However, sometimes I enjoy a good rebuttal. What does the defense say...if there is one? Is there a case for this practice?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Steve

[barry guerrero]

"pointed out that you might as well put the first trumpet up there for the first movement too"

No, because a trumpet is primarily a cylindrical bore instrument, pitched high, and with the bell pointing forwards. Trumpets can cut through anything! Case in point: The Chicago Symphony, where Orchestra Hall is relatively shallow, so the trumpets pretty much dominate over everything.  In my opinion, it would probably sound awful to have the solo trumpet fanfares played up front.

The business of having the solo horn up front has a lot to do with the acoustics of the hall, as well as the particular soloist AND the particular type of horn they're using. For whatever reason, the Concertgebouw hall is very helpful to woodwind players (it's the steep tiers), but not too generous to horn players. Having the horn soloist up front keeps them from having to blow hard the entire time. In the Vienna Phil., they use the indigenous Viennese single F-horns, which have a pretty huge sound regardless of how soft or hard you blow into them. Because they're the closest thing to a valveless "natural" horn, the tone of the Viennese F-horn just carries at any dynamic level.  In addition, Wien's little Musikverein is very generous to the horn section. The situation with the Berlin Phil. is almost the exact opposite. The Philharmonie is not real helpful to the horn section (I saw Barenboim do Bruckner 9 there, and had lots of trouble hearing the horns clearly), and they tend to cling to their relatively small Alexander double horns. Alex.'s tend to get a little "bracky" sounding when you really lean on them. Therefore, in the case of the Rattle DVD, I don't think it hurts to have the solo horn up front at all. To my ears, the Chailly/Concertgebouw sounds pretty darn good as well. Comparing horns to trumpets is truly just like comparing apples to oranges.

[david johnson]

it is not rare to do this in m5.  i do not know the % of time its done.

dj

[Zoltan]

I was thinking about this again just last night listening to (the first time) Zinman's M5 with the first edition score (Peters 1904). As you can see, Mahler defines in the score "Corno obligato" and four further horns (vier Hörner) seperately. That is contrast to the usual where the 1. horn has many solo (or other important) parts it still istn't written out separately from the other horns (c.f. other movements of Mahler's 5th).

Further, while Barry explained in detail why it wouldn't make sense due to orchestral balance, to put the 1. trumpet in the front of the orchestra in the first movement similarly to the horn in the scherzo, Mahler didn't write the 1. trumpet part separately from the other trumpet parts either.

One further reason I can find to have the obligato horn in front in the orchestra for effect is just before rehearsal number 11 (p.20 of the above linked pdf, p.137 of the score). The call of the obligato horn is answered by a hand-stopped 1. horn, as an echo far away (similiraty to the post-horn episode in M3?), after which the obligato ends this exchange just before the music changes to the sad and restrained pizzicato "waltz" of the strings (molto moderato). This episode is repeated before the whirlwind end of the scherzo (though, interestingly, as I just noticed in the score, not with hand-stopped 1. horn but a muted one. An error of the first edition? I have to check that with listening or if somebody has the critical edition at hand?)

[sbugala]

At least this is some solid backing then, rather than "this guy did it and he knew Mahler" sort of thing.  Still, I can't say I've ever felt short-changed seeing it live four times with the 1st horn in the usual spot.  Having said that, maybe I'm due to hear it another way.  Powell Symphony Hall is a very forgiving hall, so I suppose my bias was/is that almost everyone has it this good in regards to sound. 

I don't think my friend would seriously want the trumpet center stage, either.  But I think he finds either one up front kinda odd.

[Russ Smiley]

Front and center has its place: performances of Schumann's magnificent Konzertstück for Four Horns place the hornists in front of the orchestra to rightly display the virtuosos start to finish, however, I don't think the M5 Scherzo is such a case.  I performed the corno obligato part in an amateur orchestra's performance a few years back.  (In the horn playing community it is known as "Mahler's Horn Concerto" - a reflection of our great dismay that Mahler hadn't blessed us the way Strauss did with great orchestral AND solo literature).  When he told me that he programmed it in the coming season, the conductor mentioned that sometimes the Scherzo is done with the player in the front.  I'd never seen a video of a full performance of the Scherzo done that way, only the you-tube excerpt of Stephan Dohr standing out front of the Berliners, but I knew M5 very well and I couldn't imagine standing out front with so much idle time to pass between solo and tutti passages.  I gladly rehearsed and performed seated in my usual chair, the video confirming, with plenty of presence.  I thought and still do that it would be an odd spectacle to view the player either standing most of the time like a statue or twirling the horn to get the condensation out before the next blow.  I believe that a professional principal hornist using a modern horn for the Scherzo in anything but a drapery-laden or reflector-less theater would do fine in their regular seating location, and doing otherwise probably serves other, extra-musical purposes. My 2¢.

[Zoltan]

Indeed, as Russ describes, it would look rather odd.

Hm, how about standing and playing between the other horns in the orchestra? Any hints as to how Mahler performed it (now I wish I had the de La Grange books)?