your neglected Mahler work?? "True Confessions" about M8

[waderice]

Good for you, Don.
For me, the simple, childlike view of heaven of M4 reminds me of Anton Bruckner's unquestioning religion.  It is important for the singer to sing in a childlike fashion: not showing off the voice, but straightforwardly telling about a simple vision of heaven.
I also neglected M4 for too long, and have just rediscovered it this year.
John H

John,

You raise an important point about the singer singing in a childlike fashion.  Plus, that also begs the question as to WHAT singer fits the bill, either past or present.  For me, there are two from the past: One is Desi Halban, who sang in Bruno Walter's NYPO mono recording, and her daughter, Reri Grist, who later sang in Bernstein's NYPO Sony recording.  Nothing like for the daughter to follow in her mom's footsteps!

Additionally, Reri Grist can not only be heard singing, but can also be seen singing the part in the installment on Mahler in the multi-DVD set of Bernstein's Young People's Concerts.  Definitely worth watching!

Wade

[hrandall]

btw, I think whether or not one gets with the 8th, the songs and so on early or late depends on whether one is a very literary person or not.
 Ivor

I think there may be something to Ivor's thought on appreciating M8 and classic literature as well. By some strange coincidence (?) I read Goethe's Faust last year, before my first exposure to Mahler. I feel that prepared me so that M8 didn't seem as odd as it might have without that background.

I like choral music in general, and I suspect that also helped my immediate appreciation of M8. I have a suspicion that if someone likes Handel's Messiah, they ought to "get" M8 also. But maybe I'm just weird?

Cheers,
Herb

[stillivor]

Usually when a literary person is the castaway on Desert Island Discs, or the guest on the upmarket Radio 3 version [Private Passions], they usually choose works and tracks which are sung i.e. have words.

Suddenly i wonder why it's mahler's songs plus DLE and the 8th that have been the popular Mahler.
M
   Ivor

[Damfino]

I have never read Goethe's Faust, but I enjoy Gounod's Faust and Boito's Mefistofele and saw both (with Ramey) here at Houston Grand Opera. I am an opera fan in general, and I like the vocal parts of all the rest of Mahler's symphonies. I just am not into M8.

Dave

[Roland Flessner]

I neglected M8 for a number of years, for several reasons, some obviously hallucinatory. In my memory, it doesn't seem as interesting as his other works because it is not plagued by his demons. And, it's performed infrequently; often a live concert is a trigger to revisit my recordings of a piece for a while.

Last summer I went through a big obsession with M8, and was humbled by how good it is and delighted to renew the acquaintance. I read that Mahler considered it his best work and I am in no position to challenge that opinion.

[barry guerrero]

the Benstein/LSO recording did it for me. After that, I never had a problem with the 8th ever again. You might try the excellent Unitel/DG dvd of the 8th with Lennie.

[bluesbreaker]

M10 for me. Still haven't heard the whole thing.

[john haueisen]

the Benstein/LSO recording did it for me. After that, I never had a problem with the 8th ever again. You might try the excellent Unitel/DG dvd of the 8th with Lennie.

Thanks, Barry.  I'll be watching it this afternoon.

John H

[john haueisen]

Returning to M8, to me it seems that the closing of M8:  "Alles Vergangliche....ist nur ein Gleichnis...ist nur ein Gleichnis" is a theme relating to redemption, like Wagner's closing to Gotterdammerung.  I find it hauntingly beautiful, and so many of the M8 melodies and phrases continue to run through my mind for days after each M8 experience.

Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words?

John H

[waderice]

Returning to M8, to me it seems that the closing of M8:  "Alles Vergangliche....ist nur ein Gleichnis...ist nur ein Gleichnis" is a theme relating to redemption, like Wagner's closing to Gotterdammerung.  I find it hauntingly beautiful, and so many of the M8 melodies and phrases continue to run through my mind for days after each M8 experience.

Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words?

John H

I haven't given much thought to the words of the Chorus Mysticus at the close of M8, as the closing lines of M2 have much more meaning for me.  John, you bring up an interesting aspect, and it's quite possible that Mahler had the same thing in mind when composing M8.  For the most part, I'm caught up in the music, as I guess Goethe's Faust has me as baffled as likely many others here.  The next time I listen to ANY M8 recording, I'll have to concentrate on the meaning behind what's being sung vice how good or how bad the performance is.  Thanks for bringing this out.

Wade

[john haueisen]

Thanks, Wade.

I never really understood the closing scene of Faust until M8's music opened my eyes.
If we look back to Part One, which is often somewhat neglected, the Latin words of the "Veni, creator spiritus" read:

"Come, Creator Spirit,
visit our souls,
fill them with grace,
Thou, that didst create them."

It continues with many more "organized church-type" references, but most meaningful to me, in light of my love for M2, were the words "Accende lumen sensibus" (Kindle our senses with light).  They echo M2’s “wird mir ein Lichtchen geben”  (will give me a little light) and “wird leuchten mir bin in das ewig Leben” (will light the way).

Likewise, near the end of M8’s Part Two, we hear:
“Blicket auf, blicket auf, zum Retterblick, alle reuig Zarten”
(Look upward, to the redeeming gaze, all creatures frail and contrite.)

This echoes M2’s
“Werde ich entschweben, zum Licht, zu dem kein Aug’ gedrungen”
(I shall soar upwards, to the light to which no eye has penetrated)

For me personally, M8 mirrors M2, with a message of getting over the past (Alles Vergangliche), and seeing the light to a redemptive heavenly realm.

M2’s final line:  “Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!”  (It will lead you to God!)

But then, that’s just me.

John H

[waderice]

Thanks, Wade.

I never really understood the closing scene of Faust until M8's music opened my eyes.
If we look back to Part One, which is often somewhat neglected, the Latin words of the "Veni, creator spiritus" read:

"Come, Creator Spirit,
visit our souls,
fill them with grace,
Thou, that didst create them."

It continues with many more "organized church-type" references, but most meaningful to me, in light of my love for M2, were the words "Accende lumen sensibus" (Kindle our senses with light).  They echo M2’s “wird mir ein Lichtchen geben”  (will give me a little light) and “wird leuchten mir bin in das ewig Leben” (will light the way).

Likewise, near the end of M8’s Part Two, we hear:
“Blicket auf, blicket auf, zum Retterblick, alle reuig Zarten”
(Look upward, to the redeeming gaze, all creatures frail and contrite.)

This echoes M2’s
“Werde ich entschweben, zum Licht, zu dem kein Aug’ gedrungen”
(I shall soar upwards, to the light to which no eye has penetrated)

For me personally, M8 mirrors M2, with a message of getting over the past (Alles Vergangliche), and seeing the light to a redemptive heavenly realm.

M2’s final line:  “Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!”  (It will lead you to God!)

But then, that’s just me.

John H

John,

That's quite a spiritual (at least, Christian) way at looking at the texts Mahler selected for these two symphonies he wrote.  A few years ago, I presented the text of M2 to a theologian that taught for many years in Methodist seminaries, but unfortunately, I never got a positive or negative take on Mahler's selection of the Klopstock "Aufferstehung" poem and his additional text to the symphony.

Are there any men or women of the "cloth" here at the Gustav Mahler Board who'd like to express their opinion(s) one way or the other on Mahler's spiritual approach to the Second and Eighth Symphonies?

Wade

[john haueisen]

One of the unique attributes of Mahler's music is that it can be appreciated on several levels.
Even if we do not pay attention to the meaning of the words, we are still able to appreciate the misterioso and the exhilaration, the grandeur, and things I can only hint at--like the dancing of the planets--the music of the spheres.

But Mahler did choose to use words--and words mean something.
The words of M2 and M8 remind us of Judeo-Christian religion, but as usual for Mahler, he goes even further to embrace the spirituality of humanity.  The Asian or oriental themes and the tam tam provide a feeling of universality, going beyond Christian values.

Like the analogy to an onion, we can dig deeper and see other layers of each Mahler symphony.  Or, we can focus on the layer we like best, and enjoy his music on that level.

What would life be like without Mahler!

John H

[James Meckley]

Like the analogy to an onion, we can dig deeper and see other layers of each Mahler symphony.  Or, we can focus on the layer we like best, and enjoy his music on that level.

Thanks, John. This opens the door for me to add my two cents. As a non-believer, the matter of religious texts (and subtexts) in music is of some concern to me. I study the texts initially in an effort to understand the composer's motivations and intentions, but because I don't share their beliefs—and in many cases find them absurd—I end up putting the texts aside and treating the vocal components as simply additional lines in the overall musical texture. Of course, I'm able to appreciate Mahler's (typically secular) songs and song cycles in a more conventional manner, and I find "Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt" particularly rewarding.

It seems to me that Mahler—the vigorous seeker of truth—had difficulty accepting Christian mythology as it's commonly understood. He liked its promise of eternal life, but rejected its more negative, judgmental aspects. After all, in the Second Symphony we find no "day of wrath," no "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" (I love that image), and certainly no "hellfire and damnation." Instead we get a Universalist view of Christianity in which everyone is saved, whether or not they've done any of the things scripture seems to demand as prerequisites. In his Eighth Symphony, by setting the final scene of Faust, Part II, Mahler is aided by Goethe in presenting another "alternative" view of Christianity. Heinrich Faust receives full Christian redemption despite never repenting his sins, not having lived a particularly virtuous life, and never expressing any religious faith.

As they say on the Internet, YMMV.

James

[barry guerrero]

"Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words"

Sorry to jump into this conversation so late, but what I find interesting is Mahler's letter to Alma (his wife) on Goethe, and the "Chorus Mysticus" in particular. I certainly don't remember it verbatim, but Mahler emphasized the "indescribable" and the, "hier ist's getan" (here, the indescribable is achieved) aspects of the chorus. For Mahler, I think the Chorus Mysticus was as much 'mystical' as it was 'redemptive'. It's also interesting to read Donald Mitchell's essay - generally, he's somebody I'm not so crazy about - on Mahler 8. He talks about sex: Eros. The 'goodness' that's involved here is very much assigned a feminine character. This sort of crosses over into the late 19th century, Art Nuoveau-ish obsession with women's curves, freer sexual morals, and a general interest in all things erotic. Put all this together, and one can imagine that Mahler was crossing the 'orgasmic' with the 'mystical', with the added emphasis that one really can't quite do these magical things on earth. In addition, I think there's even something of a political message to Mahler 8, in much the same way that Beethoven's 9th was to the people of his time. The Mahler 6th symphony pointed out the problem to Austo/Germans (uncontrolled militarism); the 8th was a beacon pointing the way out from this dead end. However, Mahler was very poor at just coming out and saying such things. It's that whole business of fearing musical 'programs', and thus, being completely misinterpreted and misunderstood. He could sometimes be quite obtuse, and would come to a point in a rather elliptical way. Thus, he was always making literary references, and the 8th symphony is just one huge literary reference. That's why it's fun to speculate and guess.