Author Topic: M4  (Read 6157 times)

Offline merlin

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M4
« on: February 10, 2012, 02:44:02 AM »
I have listened to this symphony about four times now, most recently this afternoon, and frankly have not a clue.  It is very boring, other than a few and far between moments.

So, can anyone help me in trying to understand what Mahler was trying to convey and/or achieve?

I have listened to versions conducted by Maazel, Bernstein/DG and Bertini.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M4
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 07:39:34 AM »
Seriously? The 4th is usually considered one of the easiest to 'get'. Think of it as a 'neo-classical' reaction to the sprawling 3rd symphony. The last movement, a child's idea of what heaven is like (or wishes for it to be), was originally going to be the final movement to the 3rd symphony. Thankfully, Mahler thought better of that idea.

The first movement makes me think of winter games: sledding, skating, throwing snow balls - that sort of thing. The sinister climax is a pre-echo of the 5th symphony's opening fanfare. But all is well that ends well. This is just sort of a standard sonata form movement, with a big contrast in style between the first and second 'subjects' (main themes). I do think it's extended a tad too long, here and there. But it's still pretty good by any means.

The second movement is all one big contrast between death's fiddle playing (trying to coax up more business), and the more naive and 'heavenly' moments of the various Trio sections. I like this movement a lot, but also think that it's often times played too slowly for its own good. It should have a slight sinister quality to it, which would make the humorous feel to its ending all the more effective.

The slow movement is there because, well, all great symphonies have to have a slow movement. In my opinion, this is a really good one. I like the passage that builds up speed, just shortly before the movement's main climax. I'm told that Mahler did consider adding trombones to help reinforce the 'pedal' (bass notes) at the climax of the slow movement. But I think the crescendo he puts in the unison horn part, located just before the climax fades out,  is quite effective.

For the finale, be sure to follow the text, and think of it as being sung by a youth. Most of all, revel in the orchestral outbursts between the various vocal stanzas. Try listening to this movement several times on its own.

You're not alone, in that people were confused by this symphony in Mahler's own time. They were expecting something grandiose, of course. Mahler had already done that, and was soon to move on to his middle period style. Just know that Mahler thought very highly of this symphony himself.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:42:39 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Stürmisch Bewegt

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Re: M4
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 12:11:56 PM »
Perhaps these words of Bruno Walter may be one of the clues you ask for:

 " Overall the third symphony gives us a happy vision of life an universe.

In the fourth symphony this tendancy leads to an exalted joy...........After grave works , Mahler needed to express joy,  serenity . The result was this idyllic 4th symphony ...........Across the work, the mood remains dreamlike and unreal . The solemnity whicht often manifests itself in the third here disappears behind a mysterious smile and a fancyful humour. The fourth symphony is a fairy tale............"

You can find more in Bruno Walter's book and in Nathalie Bauer-Lechner 's Mahleriana .The fourth is the last symphony Mahler spoke about to Nathalie.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:40:31 PM by Stürmisch Bewegt »

Offline Constantin

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Re: M4
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 12:45:55 PM »
Merlin, I understand where you're coming from.  The first times I listened to M4, I didn't "get it" either.
Then, somewhere I read, "think of it as a child's view of heaven."
From then on, M4 started meaning more and more to me.
There is brilliant orchestration, "outbursts by various instruments," and simply an ingenuous, straightforward presentation of how an innocent child might see heaven.
Barry's and Sturmisch Bewegt's comments suggest how much more it can grow to be, the more we get to know it.  I'd recommend just thinking of it as a child's vision of heaven--and then reading again the suggestions by Barry and SB.
Good luck, Merlin.  I hope it starts to grow on you!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 01:39:54 PM by Constantin »
Und ruh' in einem stillen Gebiet

Offline merlin

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Re: M4
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 04:22:57 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the wonderfully explicative comments.  I will listen again with these ideas, thoughts, and interpretations in mind.

But perhaps it is also indicative of "where I am" at the moment -- desiring the deeply moving, expansive, explosive soundscapes of M3, 5, 6, and 9, for example, as well as LvB 3, 5, and 9.

And I also notice that I am more drawn to playing the Beethoven late sonatas with these kinds of soundscapes, especially the Hammerklavier and 1st movement of no. 32, and the Chopin Ballades, rather than, say, Schubert and Debussy.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 08:08:37 PM by merlin »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M4
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 05:55:59 PM »
.    .     .   then in the context of Beethoven, think of Mahler's 4th as being something like Beethoven's 4th coming after the monumental "Eroica", or the lighter 8th coming after the 7th.

Offline merlin

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Re: M4
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 06:04:18 PM »
Well put, Barry!

 

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