I keep trying other composers and their CD's but . . .

[barry guerrero]

I think if you took a moment to 'read beyond the notes' (so to speak), you'd probably realize that what I'm saying is that I'm having trouble finding new things to listen to that hold my attention. I'm extremely familiar with ALL of the composers you listed. I like Debussy very much, but I wouldn't consider him greater than Mahler. Instead, I would say that it's 'apples and oranges'. To me, that's a bit like the comment by the fellow who said he'd rather have one piece of Chopin than everything by Mahler. Why does there need to be an either/or situation?

That said, I'll stick to my guns by saying that, IMHO, Mahler does raise the bar very greatly. I think there are very few composers AFTER Mahler who are the equal of him. One composer you listed was Alban Berg. I like Berg very much, as I think he composed two of the greatest operas of the 20th Century, along with my favorite violin concerto of the last century (Sibelius' would be #2 for me). Berg's "Drei Stucke fur Orchester" is an obvious successor to Mahler 6 - a work that Berg greatly admired (along with the first movement of M9).

As for Webern, he's simply not among my favorites. In comparison to Schoenberg, I appreciate Webern's much leaner, more sparse textures, along with Webern's brevity to his works. In general, I actually enjoy Stravinsky's late 12 tone works more than Webern's. That brings me to Stravinsky.

Many would say that Stravinsky was THE greatest composer of the last century. I do like Stravinsky but I don't subscribe to that opinion (for me, it would be late Mahler, Berg, Ravel and Shostakovich). He was very prolific, so some works were obviously better than others. For me, Stravinsky's 'neo-classical' period ran on a bit too long. Thus, I'm thankful that he evolved towards the end, as he did so quite well. Obviously, "The Rite" was a milestone work, along with Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun". There ARE at least a dozen truly great works by Stravinsky. But there are also quite a few that many people, including myself, could pretty much take or leave.

Anyway, that's enough. I do subscribe to what Boulez said about 'minimalist' music. When asked, "what do think of minimalist music?", Boulez answered, "minimal". One post-Mahler  composer who you didn't list, who I DO like, is Francis Poulenc. Carl Nielsen is another.

p.s. (written later)

Going back to my exaggerated expression of 'suckage', I'll give you recent example. I just recently picked up a couple of Per Norgard symphonies on the Da Capo label, performed superbly by the Vienna Phil. (and a gorgeous sacd/cd hybrid recording as well). While the music is both colorful and dynamic, as with so many modern composers, I just think there's not enough of a 'narrative' to justify the length of these works. Boulez described Mahler's music as being both 'epic', and 'narrative' like in quality. I agree.

[Dal Segno]

Now that sounds much more thought-through than saying other composers music "sucks.." (an extreme case of apples and oranges I would say). Comparing composers actually seems fruitless to me, I was just making the point that Debussy suffers much less hyperbole than Mahler does, probably because his music lacks the spectacular surface of (some of) Mahlers music (his Preludes for piano are a notable exception).

Anyway, brushing aside ALL other composer and saying their music sucks doesn't leave much room for subleties beyond the notes.




 

[Dal Segno]

Well, sure, if you compare Mahler to Per Norgard, then yes, other composers do suck..

[barry guerrero]

I think if you had bothered to read the posts following my initial one, you might have gleaned that we were discussing primarily post-Mahler compositions. Names like Gal, Tubin and Havergal Brian came up.  Most of the people who post here are 'regulars', so they know where I'm going with such a statement. Nowhere did I say that Bach sucks, Schumann sucks, Schubert sucks, etc. In fact, if you had taken time to look around at other postings, you might have even gathered that I - like Mahler and many others - very much like the Schumann symphonies. I think most everybody here does.

[Dal Segno]

Let's put this whole business behind us and let me give you some titles of compositions by post-Mahler composers and contemporaries that do not suck:

Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande, Jeux, Chansons de bilitis, La Mer, Noctures, sonatas
Berg: the operas, Chamber Symphony, Altenberg Songs and the pieces you mentioned earlier
Schönberg: Piano Concerto, Pierrot Lunaire, Herzgewächse, Erwartung, Chamber Symphonies, String Trio, Buch der hängenden Gärten, Orchestra Variations, 5 Pieces for Orchestra, Serenade
Bartok: 6 String Quartets, Bluebeards Castle, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Piano Concertos, Violin Concerto(s)
Elgar: 2 Symphonies, Falstaff, Introduction and Allegro, Violin- and Cello Concertos, Piano Quintet
Walton: Symphonies, Concertos, Troilus and Cressida
Stravinsky: Les Noces, Oedipus Rex, Rake's Progress, Violin Concerto, Mavra, Agon, Apollo Musagete, Orpheus, Persephone, Baiser de la Fee, Cantata
Strauss: Salome, Elektra, Rosenkavalier, Frau ohne Schatten, Metamorphosen, Oboe Concerto, 4 Last Songs, Arabella
Webern: Orchesterstücke op. 6, Variations op. 28, Cantata 1 and 2
Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit, String Quartet, Introduction and Allegro, l'Enfant et les Sortileges, Piano Concerto, Shéhérezade, Le tombeau de Couperin, Mallarmé Songs
Janacek: Every single opera of his!
Britten: Peter Grimes, Billy Budd, String Quartets, Nocturne, Serenade, Michelangelo Sonnets, Winter Words
Pfitzner: the songs! Palestrina, Piano Concerto
Lutoslawski: Symphonic Variations, Piano Concerto
Franz Schmidt: Symphony 4
Frank Martin: Petite Symphonie Concertante, Golgotha, Die Weise von Liebe und Tod des Cornets Christoph Rilke
Hindemtih: Mathis der Maler, Symphonische Metamorphosen, Ludus Tonalis, Das Marienleben, Kammermusik 1-7, Mörder, Hoffnung der Frauen, Cardillac
Reger: Bach- Hiller- Mozart, Beethoven-Variations, Symphonic Prologue to a Tragedy, Piano Concerto
Vierne: Piano Quintet, Organ Symphonies
Chausson: Le Roi Arthus, String Quartet, most of the songs
Busoni: Piano Concerto, Berceuse Élégaique
Sibelius: Symphonies, Tapiola
Prokofiev: Symphonies, some of the operas, Piano Concerto nr. 2
Ives: Concord Sonata, Symphony nr. 4
Diepenbrock: Im grossen Schweigen, Elektra, Marsyas
Willem Pijper: Symphony nr. 2, String Quartets
Vaughan Williams: Symphonies 4, 5 and 6, Riders to the Sea, Job, Piano Concerto, 5 Tudor Portraits, Serenade to music
Orff: Der Mond, Die Kluge
Tippett: A Child of our Time
Korngold: Die Tote Stadt, Violin Concerto
Schreker: Die ferne Klang, Die Gezeichneten
Zemlinksy: Lyrische Sinfonie, Florentinische Tragödie
Honeger: Jeanne d'Arc au Bucher
Milhaud: Le Boeuf sur le toit, La Création du monde
Zimmermann: Die Soldaten
Berio: Rendering, Sinfonia, Folk Songs
Puccini: Turandot, Fanciulla del West, La Rondine
Szymanowski: Król Roger, Violin Concertos
Hartmann:Simplicius Simplicissimus
Messiaen: Poemes pour Mi, Quatour pour la fin de temps, Visions de l'Amen

Etc, Etc, Etc

I could go on, and on, and of course, you've already stated your opinions on Stravinsky, Schönberg, Webern and Berg in a previous post and it's always a matter of personal taste. Maybe it's just the wording of your orginal post, but I assure you, none of the music by these (mostly post Mahler) composers "and their CD's.." sucks!

[merlin]

I have been attempting to stay out of this.  However, dal segno, until your arrival this board has been outstanding in terms of respect and caring for one another.  Act with caring and respect, or do us all a favor and cancel your account.  The kind of vitriol and back-biting you spread has no place here, or anywhere, for that matter.

[merlin]

IMFFHO, calling someone's post "stupid" adds nothing to any conversation, and is judgmental and belittling.  And you claim you are objectively speaking???

I also find your comment, "..you guys shouldn't react like, well, little girls when someone doesn't agree with you" to be demeaning and sexist at best.

Next time you desire to point a finger at someone, do it whilst looking in a mirror.

[Dal Segno]

Actually, I have added him, second from below. Great composer.

[beisen]

Sorry, Hartmann's on the list, although I have trouble with that opera.

[Dal Segno]

It's not an easy work to love indeed, but a great and important work nevertheless. Some of his symphonies are truly outstanding. They really do not "suck" at all!

[beisen]

Yes,an interesting and very fine composer who should be performed far more.
Thanks for the fine list. So how about Martinu? The sixth symphony and Gilgamesh don't suck either. Also the second violin concerto.