Author Topic: SACD vs. Redbook  (Read 9049 times)

Offline Roland Flessner

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SACD vs. Redbook
« on: July 03, 2016, 03:05:35 PM »
I recall an interview in Fanfare with a Telarc engineer, discussing SACD recordings. He said that the two-channel version is not mixed down from the surround tapes, and that it's really a separate recording. I don't know if other labels follow the same practice.

The engineer explained than for the surround recording, the main mikes on the orchestra capture a very dry sound, and that the surround mikes add the ambiance. It can't readily be adapted for two-channel use, and for that, the orchestra is miked conventionally.

I do not have a surround system and thus cannot readily compare. I used to have a DVD player with SACD capabilities, but in comparing two-channel SACD vs. Redbook, I heard little if any improvement in SACD. I'm curious if others on the forum have had similar experiences.

Offline ChrisH

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 04:18:59 PM »
The Telarc engineer is correct. The multi and two channel are different mixes. The surrounds are supposed to create the full ambience of the hall, and perhaps off stage this or that depending on what you are listening too. I'm sure James Meckley can enlighten us more on this, he has recorded lots of things.

It is very hard to compare DSD vs Redbook for many reasons. I would imagine that your DVD player converted the DSD to PCM before converting to analogue. If you were using an Oppo, then the conversion is straight from DSD to analogue. If you really want to try DSD vs Redbook, use software like Jriver or Foobar. With Foobar you ABX test yourself.

With really good multi-channel SACD recordings, you can get a very 'realistic' experience. More so than with a 2 channel. It can be cost prohibitive, and quite time consuming to set-up properly.

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2016, 07:59:57 PM »
Thanks, good info! On my own systems, I'll be staying with two channels, though I'd like to hear a well-executed surround setup.

I recently upgraded my main system with a Yamaha integrated amp, replacing a not-very-old Yamaha receiver, which has now moved to another room. I wasn't expecting a noticeable improvement in sound, having bought the amp for the convenience of an optical input for audio from the TV. However, the difference is amazing. The sound is so spacious that when using headphones, I find myself checking to see if I left the speakers on.

Also, recordings that sounded odd or mediocre now make a better impression. The Zinman Mahler sounds really good, and it did not on the old system. Telarc recordings from Cincinnati with Paavo Jarvi, which previously sounded curiously dull in the highs, sound much closer to normal now.

Offline ChrisH

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2016, 01:19:14 PM »
With your new integrated amp you have much better internal power supplies, torroids etc...It would also have a better headphone section. This is what is giving you a better experience.

If you want to hear a good multi-channel, find a good Hi-Fi shop and have a listen. Most of them can be quite accommodating without the feeling of having to purchase something. Just make sure they have an acoustically treated room. Without that, you are just fooling yourself.

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2016, 08:30:03 PM »
If a Surround Sound system isn't set up properly you can't expect to have much of an improvement in sound with SACD. But if you set it up correctly, and don't try to do it on the cheap, the results can be astonishing. Of course, it always comes down to how the original recording was mastered. There are many redbook cds that sound better than many sacds.

To really hear what a good sacd can do you need to use headphones. To be honest, no integrated amp has a headphone amp worthy of great cans. For that you need a dedicated headphone amp and the good ones don't come cheap. My current amp is a Woo Audio WA6 which is very reasonably priced, especially for vacuum tubes. Paired with Sennheisers HD800 the sound is thrilling, lifelike and exciting. Of course, then there's the front end: you have to have a great cd player, but no one needs to spend thousands for some of the really exotic labels. I have a Sony ES series connected and it sounds great. Try a redbook vs. sacd of the same recording and you'll be amazed at the difference. The multichannel sacds have no value.

For movies and sometimes music, I use speakers. In a typical room (NOT what you have in an audio shop) the ambient noise is going to make a difference. A high quality receiver is not terribly expensive. I'm currently using an Onkyo that is everything I need - enough power to make Lord of the Rings take off, more connections than I'll ever use, and built like a tank. Any good bluray player with sacd ability is fine. Now with sacds the sound can be amazingly lifelike, powerful. But it's a matter of are the speakers (especially the surrounds) set up and calibrated correctly. Sometimes, the surrounds only add some ambience, sometimes, more, especially in movies. With a good recording, crank the volume up, have a good bourbon in your hand and wallow in a sound that is usually only experienced by a conductor standing on a podium.

I am old enough to have gone through every attempt to make sound better in the home: from mono to stereo lps, then came quadraphonic, the ill-fated CX lps, tape formats from 1/4 inch, cassette, to the forgotten Elcaset, then finally cds - and on to HDCH (still the best sounding disks I've ever heard), Dolby Surround, SACD, and now BD-A. I have not played with the downloadable formats and won't. The dream of a sound so life-like and accurate that it sounds like "you are there" has never yet been reached. And I've listened to superb $100,000 Krell systems that are still not there, however great they sound. But there is one format that could have come closer than anything if producers had just promoted it and if there had been an audience large enough to support it: and that's binaural recordings. The few that I have convey a sense of being there that is simply incredible. It's really too bad that when the great cd era started some 30 years ago that binaural mics weren't set up at the same time as the other mics and have that option. With sacd coupled to binaural the sound could have been nothing short of miraculous.

It is interesting that there are few companies left doing sacd, and they don't even do it on all their recordings. Maybe the audience isn't large enough and the modest increase in sound quality just isn't worth it. Besides, with most people getting their sound on cheap earbuds and mp3-like players and phones, what does it matter? HiFi is going away.

Offline James Meckley

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2016, 08:45:22 PM »
I recall an interview in Fanfare with a Telarc engineer, discussing SACD recordings. He said that the two-channel version is not mixed down from the surround tapes, and that it's really a separate recording. I don't know if other labels follow the same practice. The engineer explained than for the surround recording, the main mikes on the orchestra capture a very dry sound, and that the surround mikes add the ambiance. It can't readily be adapted for two-channel use, and for that, the orchestra is miked conventionally.

Roland,

Although I've spent most of my recording career making stereo (2.0) recordings, I've kept up with surround technology and may be able to shed some light on your original post. The Fanfare interview you cite was in the November/December 2004 issue and was of Michael Bishop, Telarc's chief engineer from 1988–2008. Here are the two relevant paragraphs from that interview:

*  *  *

Bishop explains that different microphone techniques are necessary for the stereo and multichannel versions of Telarc's recordings; the producer and engineer are really charged with making two recordings at the same time. "In stereo, we have to present the illusion of depth and width that we've worked all these years to master. We don't want to change that technique in order to accommodate another format that has some different requirements. ... That has required putting another layer of microphone techniques on top and trying to deal with the two simultaneously. We still adhere to the 'less is more' philosophy—try to work with as few microphones as possible, as few channels of amplification, as few layers of mixing. Our goal is coming out of the session with a finished stereo mix and, we hope, getting as close as possible to a finished surround mix at the same time."

Some microphones are shared for the two mixes, while others are utilized exclusively for the multichannel. "To get the proper balance of an orchestra to the hall, we have to present the orchestra up front in a somewhat dryer soundstage than we would in stereo. So that when you add the ambience that is out in the surrounds, it doesn't become a wash. If we just took our stereo feed, put it up front and then added ambience in the rear channels, we would get a double amount of ambience and a sea of reverberation. We need a little more inner detail and a little dryer imaging up front. To achieve that, depending on the piece, I'll have, perhaps, another three microphones set up just inside the orchestra to pull in a little more of the detail and to help dry up the front channels of the surround mix. . . . Because the ambience is fairly pronounced out in the listening room, coming from the surrounds, we may need to help solidify, in particular, wind instrument imaging with the center channel microphone. Sometimes that center channel mix going to surround is a combination of a center microphone that's above and behind the conductor and then that inside, microphone which is right over the first row of the winds." [Italics added for emphasis.]

*  *  *

Telarc's primary technique from the beginning was the "omni triad": a row of three spaced omni-directional microphones (often Schoeps Mk2 omnis) placed above and just behind the conductor. This is very similar to Mercury's "Living Presence" and RCA's "Living Stereo." This microphone array is used as the basis for both the stereo and the surround recordings. In the case of the surround recording, three additional mics are placed much closer to the orchestra and mixed in with the main mics—presumably with appropriate delay applied—to reduce the amount of ambient sound in the main Left-Center-Right mix for the surround recording. This prevents the ambience contributed by the surround channels from becoming overbearing and retains a natural direct-to-reflected balance.

The point isn't to make the L-C-R image "very dry" but to make it just "a little drier" so as to compensate for the ambience added by the surround channels. A very dry L-C-R image with all the ambience coming from the surround speakers would sound quite unnatural. After all, the reverberant field is a 360-degree phenomenon with some of it coming from the front of the concert hall.

James
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 01:10:26 AM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2016, 04:02:59 AM »
Very useful info from everyone, and much appreciated!

A couple comments: I do most of my serious listening with headphones. My speakers are very good, but I like the detail you can hear with good cans (Grado SR-225s), and I have an ambient noise problem since I don't live very far from O'Hare airport. In fact, we have a fire station a couple blocks away, and several nervous little yipping dogs across the street. When I am profoundly unlucky, all three of these irritants crank up at the same time, of course during the quietest passages. The Grados are over-the-ear and don't seal out much ambient noise, but they do help a lot.

As for downloadable formats, I use FLAC, which is lossless and should be indistinguishable from a redbook CD. I burn the files to CD anyway. I do have to say, the Delfs Mahler MP3s from Milwaukee sound very good.

FLAC is capable of encoding surround sound, but I don't know if any source offers surround downloads yet.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 07:40:53 PM »
This has all been educational. I'm assuming that DSD is a step that leads to SACD, because I notice that DSD recordings sound quite good on even low-end, two channel audio equipment. I like them.

Barry

Offline ChrisH

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Re: SACD vs. Redbook
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 01:01:49 PM »
This has all been educational. I'm assuming that DSD is a step that leads to SACD, because I notice that DSD recordings sound quite good on even low-end, two channel audio equipment. I like them.

Barry

DSD is the format that resides on one layer of an SACD; they have two, the other being the Redbook. The mastering is much more important than the format.

 

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