F vs. B flat trumpets

[Roland Flessner]

Mahler usually specifies both F and B flat trumpets. A quick scan of my scores shows that symphonies 1, 3-8 and DlvDE use both, 2 uses C and F, and 9 uses only F. (That is just a quick scan and might not be 100 percent.)

Checking online, I’ve read that the F trumpets were common in the 19th century, but around the turn of the 20th, B flat became more common. Also, some orchestras, lacking F trumpets, play everything on the B flats.

The F trumpet is a larger instrument with a slightly lower range. From my listening, I think Mahler often uses one or the other in a way that appears counterintuitive, e.g., F is used for higher parts and B flat for lower. I suspect that he was after a particular timbre, making the instruments "reach" for relative extremes of register. Then again, when I hear a section, then check the score for which is being used, I'm often wrong.

Any musicians on the forum care to comment and, I hope, enlighten?

[ChrisH]

Honesty, I think a lot of why Mahler wrote in F and Bb is to keep his notes more in the staff. It would turn into a mess if everything was written in F. I agree with you in that Mahler was looking for certain colors and timbres, but he also switches keys when it would be physically impossible to switch out trumpets. Wagner also did this all of the time, too. Anyway, the Bb stuff is often times the more fanfare motifs, as that is what the instrument was thought of at the times, while the F parts are often more lyrical. Now everyone plays in C, though some of the London orchestras use Bb. This is another can of worms open along with the piston/rotary argument.

Your comment about extreme registers is also quite interesting and a reason I think that Mahler sounds so different from a modern orchestra, say the last 20-25 years, then previously. These extreme registers are not extreme anymore, and they've also been playing these scores since high school.

[AZContrabassoon]

There's no question that a Viennese F-trumpet has a different color than the more commonly played B-flat or C instruments. I do some conducting and frequently create performance materials from long-forgotten scores. When I encounter F trumpet parts I consider what sound the composer was after and usually just rescore it in C, but sometimes I have players use flugelhorns. And sometimes I've even rescored for F horn - as long as the players don't use a modern double horn! It's tricky, but since F trumpets are really rare, necessary.

[barryguerrero]

I've known many trumpet players over the years, and I can't think of a single one who owned an F trumpet. As "AZ Conctrabassoon" has pointed out, today's orchestral musicians use mostly C trumpets. Those are fine, but they lack the fatter low end of the Bb.  Do you know the Shostakovich 8th symphony?   .    .   . 

.   .   if so, think of the trumpet solo - that ultimately turns into a trumpet trio - that's located in the middle of the third movement. It starts out on a fat whole note in the low register of the trumpet and then ascends from there. When Americans play that on their C trumpets, it always sounds weak or thin. Hear a good Russian trumpet player do in a on Bb, and you'll hear a really fat low note!

Aside from C and Bb trumpets, many trumpet players will also own a D/Eb trumpet. Those are real handy. Some players use D/Eb on that difficult solo located abut 3/4th's the way through "Petrushka". Real cornets are often times employed in Berlioz.

Back to Mahler, there are places in the finale of M6 where the trumpets have to lay out some fat low notes. I wonder if Mahler had specified F trumpet in some of those spots (?)   .    .     .  I'll look through the score.

[Roland Flessner]

Interesting observations, thanks! So all these years I thought I was listening to F trumpets and may rarely have heard them, if ever.

Here's a good example in M3, first movement, starting one bar before #58. Our trombone solo has returned, but this time, the whole and half notes are reinforced by three B flat trumpets. (Barry, there's your fat tone tone for you.) This would be closer to the middle of the range with the F instruments, but I suspect Mahler wanted the sound of the lower register. Then again, I could be full of it. Happens a lot.