Author Topic: M3 along with some comments on listening  (Read 8946 times)

Offline Roland Flessner

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M3 along with some comments on listening
« on: June 13, 2017, 02:41:40 AM »
Having heard M3 in Milwaukee a couple weeks ago, I have surveyed most of the recordings I own, along with another from the library. I will do this with a Mahler work every few years, triggered usually either by a concert or by hearing a previously unknown recording. Each time, I often come to somewhat different views of the performances.

Typically, I will start with the more recent or unfamiliar recordings, then move toward my previous favorites, which come last. I find that I almost try to avoid arriving at that previous "winner," perhaps suspecting that its charm will have faded. (I'm not alone; one Fanfare reviewer [though possibly not for the same reason] mentioned that he rarely listens to his favorite recordings.)

I claim nothing rational or orderly about this process, agreeing with Emerson that "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." In each round of listening, I'm noticing somewhat different characteristics. If I demote a recording, it is with regret, but I am always delighted to find virtues that previously eluded me. My conclusions (not really conclusions, because they are always tentative) rarely change radically.

In this round of M3 listening, I am surprised that I found Bertini to be a very strong performance, in respectable sound. I didn't care for this performance at all when I first heard it almost three decades ago. Bychkov also rose in the rankings; this recording seemed uninvolving last time I listened to it, but now find it well thought out and nicely recorded, one of the more appealing choices. Levine/CSO is a fine performance, sounding much better on CD than in its vinyl incarnation.

To help cement my reputation as an unreliable reviewer, I was favorable impressed with Boulez when I bought it a couple years ago, less so in the early rounds of my current survey, and back to liking it a lot when I tried it again. (The SQ alone, unusually lifelike, makes this worth a listen.)

Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati and Litton/Dallas have gone to the out stack. Neither captures an idiomatic Mahler sound. I cast a jaundiced eye at Zander; this recording has its virtues, but suffers from a softness and lack of detail in the bass. I couldn't get past the first movement.

Haitink/RCO, though in dated sound, still holds its own as a fine performance. Chailly also sound very good to me this time around, far better than before.

The previous favorites? Ozawa and Inbal/Frankfurt have always struck me as among the strongest entries in their respective sets, and I still think each is outstanding.

A very honorable mention goes to Leinsdorf/BSO. While the lightweight sonority often strikes me, at least initially, as unidiomatic, the clarity and detail in this recording is breathtaking, and for me, Leinsdorf's interpretation commands attention. It's compelling, if unusual, from start to finish, but note particularly the third movement. He really speeds up the more intense episodes of the finale, fully justified by the score. RCA had long captured radiant string tone in Boston—you'd have to pry those Munch recordings from my cold, dead fingers—and this recording is an outstanding example.

A final note on my peculiarities as a listener: I often have a negative reaction when I first hear a recording, for reasons I cannot explain, and I've learned not to take it too seriously. I bought most of the Jansons/RCO Live CDs a year ago and found them somewhere between underwhelming and annoying at first. A few months ago, I played his M4 and couldn't get past the first few minutes. Yet I've just listened to 1, 3, 4, 5 and 8, and all strike me as fine performances in very good sound, a few trivial quibbles aside.

And as I stagger to the finish line of this absurdly long post, I think it is a measure of the greatness of Mahler's music that it comes alive in such a variety of interpretations. Surely we are living in a golden age to have so many choices arrayed before us.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:52:04 AM by Roland Flessner »

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 03:17:29 AM »
 "I think it is a measure of the greatness of Mahler's music that it comes alive in such a variety of interpretations. Surely we are living in a golden age to have so many choices arrayed before us"

Amen!

By the way, I agree with many of your conclusions.

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 04:12:30 PM »
I've been listening to the new Fischer/Budapest M3 from Channel Classics. Wow! What a terrific reading. Turn down the lights, crank up the surround sound, have a nice Merlot at hand and it was heaven. The conducting is exactly what I want in Mahler - it's not overly fussy, respects the markings in the score, and doesn't draw more attention to the conductor than the composer. The sacd sound is breathtaking. Powerful and transparent. The last movement may be too quick for some tastes, but not for me. Like Solti, Fischer keeps the tempo up. No long drawn out Bernstein here.

We are indeed living in wonderful times to be a music lover with so many recordings available and so many of them of excellent or better quality. Of course, there is no "best" M3; there are many superb ones and whichever I pull out for a listen I am quite happy with, but this new one sure made my ears perk up. Most of Mahler from Fischer has been excellent and I look forward to more, but I do wish he had lived with M5 for a while longer before recording it - that one is a dud despite superior sonics.

I do have one quibble with the Fischer M3, and one that he's not alone with: in the fourth movement those damned oboe & English horn glissandos are just so wrong! Who started that? Was it Rattle? I just cannot accept that that crude, vulgar sound is what Mahler had in mind. Too bad Walter died before recording M3 - he was as likely an expert on what Mahler wanted as we could have had.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 01:20:41 AM »
   .    .    .    and you're a double reed player!   :o  The score clearly states "hinauf ziehen", which literally means to pull upwards. If you can describe a better way that double reed players could pull that off, I'm all ears. Personally, I think it interjects a bit of much needed 'color' into a movement that sort of lacks 'ear candy' to begin with (at least in comparison to the other five movements). It does seem a tad more exaggerated on the Fischer recording, but then I got to thinking that perhaps Fischer's decidedly faster-than-normal tempo just makes it stand out more (?). 

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 04:56:24 AM »
The score adds, in parentheses, "Wie ein Naturlaut" ("Like a sound of nature"). If the passage is meant to imitate a bird, the instruction is still vague. Some birds sing a glissando, some don't. In string parts, when Mahler wanted a glissando, he would draw a straight line, but he does not do so in these wind parts. For my part, I've never gotten used to the glissando.

Just my opinion, humble or otherwise, but you can take it from another (long lapsed) double reed player. Besides, if you yearn for an imitation of birdsong, move a little farther down the shelf and grab some Messiaen.

I'd love to hear the Fischer M3, though I don't have a surround setup. I do most of my serious listening with headphones anyway.

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 07:10:15 AM »
My comment sounded a bit aggressive, but all I meant by it was this: I would think that double reed players would jump at the chance to make a really weird sound during a solo.   ;D

Roland, you can get an MP3 download of the Fischer M3 that won't cost you a whole lot. And, if you wait long enough, it might show up at Spotify for free listening (even better!). Sometimes Spotify leaves a movement out. For example, they left out the choral "bim, bam" movement on the Haitink/BRSO M3 (which is also pretty good). I assume that that's at the request of the label.

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 01:02:14 PM »
Somehow, when I was playing, I managed to make really weird sounds without attempting a glissando. I tried playing my oboe a couple years ago after many years of disuse, but warned my landlady and asked her not to call law enforcement if she heard disturbing noises from upstairs.

Barry, I buy FLACs from Presto Classical, and avoid MP3s unless I'm desperate. I note that Presto does not sell any downloads of the Fischer Mahler recordings.

Much as I'd like to hear the Fischer M3, now that I'm in my seventh decade, I've realized that I don't need to own every recording ever issued. Moreover, since I'm never 100 percent satisfied with any recording, I'm content with the range of interpretations already on the shelf.

You mentioned that you had culled your collection, and I'm doing that too. One local record store chain (Reckless) gives you a card with each CD; you can return the CD at any time and receive 60 percent of the cost as trade-in value. I just donated a couple boxes of CDs to a nearby public library.

Next I can cull quite a bit of vinyl, enough I hope that my shelves will accommodate art books I've been buying lately.


Offline waderice

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 01:14:39 PM »
One local record store chain (Reckless) gives you a card with each CD; you can return the CD at any time and receive 60 percent of the cost as trade-in value.

Roland, where is this "Reckless" record store chain?  Rather odd name.

Thanks, Wade

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 01:57:19 PM »
Reckless Records (reckless.com) has three stores: Downtown on Madison between State and Wabash; Wicker Park, a couple blocks N of the Division Blue Line stop; and Broadway just S of Belmont. The Broadway store has the best classical selection. Since all three stores have quite a bit of turnover, frequent stops are worthwhile.

Other favorite area outposts: Amaranth Books in Evanston. Not a huge selection of CDs, but some unusual stuff, and an excellent book selection, well curated and attractively priced. And Half Price Books is worth checking out. I go to the stores at Skokie and Highland Park, but they have a few others in the area too. HPB has a lot of dreck, but you never know when you'll stumble across something good. For example, I didn't think my favorite recording of the Peer Gynt suites (Vaclav Neumann/Leipzig Gewandhaus) had ever been issued on CD, but I found it there.

When I go to the Twin Cities, the Cheapo Disc stores used to be mandatory stops, if not sufficient justification for the trip, but the St. Paul store no longer sells classical, and the Minneapolis outpost has reduced its previously huge classical section to a fraction of its earlier size. Nonetheless, when I went in April, I found the Solti/CSO DLvDE (Minton/Kollo), which I had never seen before on CD. A middling performance, but with a spectacular tamtam in Der Abschied.

And if you think Reckless is an odd name for a record store, try Drastic Plastic in Omaha (no classical). Relief is across the street at Homer's a decent store.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 02:00:46 PM by Roland Flessner »

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 06:45:34 PM »
As a double reed player, I have no trouble making weird sounds...even when I'm not supposed to! I know what Mahler wrote, but I also know he knew how to indicate glissando and portamento. In the passages under discussion he didn't use those notations. So what did he mean? Who knows with absolute authority? I think the best way to play it is a slur - no tonguing the second note - with a slight increase in dynamic. If Mahler had wanted a gliss there's no question in my mind he would have written that in. Problem is, woodwinds have a notoriously difficult time play a gliss in the way that a trombone or string instrument can. Gershwin's in Rhapsody in Blue works, but I've heard many a clarinetist screw it up. The acoustics and keys of oboes and bassoons really limit the fake glissandos that are possible. Mahler, the master orchestrator, surely was aware of the limitations and he certainly knew the possibilities, as his use of flutter tongue demonstrates.

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 06:54:46 PM »
Well let's agree upon one point: some players can do it better  - less obtrusively, perhaps? - than others. I listened to that movement again, and I agree that it seems more blatant and awkward sounding with Fischer's players. I think the faster tempo draws your attention to the effect.

Roland, Channel Classics sells after different levels of downloads on their own website. I don't think they come cheap, however.

https://www.channelclassics.com/catalogue/38817-Mahler-Symphony-no-3/

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2017, 07:23:56 PM »
Barry, looks like Channel will sell a 44k FLAC for $15.97. Not bad, really, compared to two full-price SACDs. For comparison, Presto sells the Stenz M3 FLAC for $24, almost half the cost of the entire set on redbook CDs.

I agree that it seems unlikely Mahler wanted a glissando, and yes, it's almost physically impossible with a double reed instrument anyway.

Now for a different but equally absurd challenge, how about the fluttertonging in the oboe part of the Alpine Symphony?


Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 02:24:55 AM »
Fluttertongue oboe! I guess Strauss knew oboists who could do it. But why? I can do it on bassoon but it sounds utterly awful! The most ridiculous oboe writing still belongs to Sibelius in Kullervo.

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 03:33:00 AM »
Too bad, because "Kullervo" is actually a really good piece. Well  .    .    .    to me, anyway.

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M3 along with some comments on listening
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 12:01:49 AM »
Wonderful piece - hard to understand why Sibelius banned performances for so long. But it does show his inexperience in orchestral writing, which that oboe solo demonstrates clearly. In the hands of a fine player, it almost sounds musical! Idiomatic writing for instruments isn't something that comes naturally to all composers. Beethoven has his share of "oops", too. And Schumann, Dvorak, even Mahler miscalculated from time to time.

 

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