Horenstein M4

[Thomass]

Hi everyone,

Just curious to hear opinions on Jascha Horenstein's 1970 studio recording of M4 with the LSO and a young Margeret Price.
I've listened to it superficially on youtube and was wondering what people here think. The British critics swoon over Horenstein as a Mahler conductor (Tonny Duggan thought very highly of both Horenstein's M3 and M4), whereas David Hurwitz takes the exact opposite view and hardly considers Horenstein (and Barbirolli) a professional conductor.

[Prospero]

I am not sure of the correctness of the Hurwitz reference, but the idea that Horenstein could ever be considered not a "professional conductor" is not worth the least attention.

Readers of this site may well be familiar with this overview of Horenstein's conducting and recorded career:
http://www.donaldclarkemusicbox.com/horenstein/

[Prospero]

In the 1920s Furtwängler chose Horenstein as his assistant. Horenstein would prepare, say, the Vienna Philharmonic for for him frequently. No matter what one's overall view of Furtwängler is, he knew infinitely more about conducting than Hurwitz ever could imagine. And in those long ago days starting in 1922 only  Bruno Walter and early Mengelberg championed Mahler more than Horenstein.

We have very fine versions of Horenstein's M1, M3, M4, M5, M7, M8, and Das Lied von der Erde that are remarkable. If Mr. Hurwitz doesn't like them, that is his privilege. But his opinion is only his opinion. The recorded legacy stands on its own.

[barryguerrero]

I can tell you from first hand experience that D. Hurwitz did like the Horentstein M4. That was back in the latter '80s. It is a good recording for its time. There are others I like better now. From the LSO, the one I like the best is Benjamin Britten's (BBC Legends). On the other hand, I wouldn't begin to describe the Horenstein M7 recording as "remarkable" - neither his, nor Barbirolli's. Not even close in my book. I think talking about M7 in a 'historical' context is nearly a complete waste of time. The best of the pre-stereo ones, IMHO, is the Scherchen/VPO one.

In my opinion - and it's ONLY an opinion - the Horenstein/LSO M1, M3, M8 (BBC Legends) and the VSO M9 (Vox Box or whatever 'pirate') are all quite good. To me, the 1959 Royal Albert M8 is the best of those. I can't comment on his "DLvdE", but I know that Horenstein felt very strongly about that work. I do not like the Unicorn CD pressing of the M3. I think the Noneseuch LP release sounds much better. For me, the truth lies someplace in the middle.

[Prospero]

Perhaps I could leave the M7 aside. The DLvdE seems quite fine to me.

The M1 on a Nonesuch LP was a revelation for me along with the Walter stereo M9 LP long ago. The Nonesuch LPs are far more vivid than the CDs, as you note. In fact I find this true of many important recordings of the LP era and even the 78 era.

I don't see why historical context is a waste of time. Without historical context there would probably be virtually no Mahler performed today. The case of Janacek might be a parallel.

[barryguerrero]

Let me be clear, I'm referring specifically to Mahler 7. At that time, it was among the least played and least understood Mahler symphonies. It was - and still is - the most technically challenging to perform - it's almost a 'concerto for orchestra' and every note that gets played by anyone is highly exposed. IMHO - and it's only an opinion - the first really good M7 recordings didn't happen until Bernstin, Haitink and Kubelik. I do think there is a good 'historical' recording of M6, for example: F. Charles Adler (less so his M3).

[Prospero]

I see your point. You are probably right. I like all three, the early Bernstein, Haitink, and Kubelik in M7. The brooding opening of the Bernstein certainly revealed a work of great stature. I've only heard it live once, with Abbado. But a favorite now. Maybe give Horenstein some credit for performing it when it was hardly ever done. And it probably took both orchestras and conductors a long tie to coe to grips with it.

Strangely there is a relatively (!) inexpensive facsimile of the manuscript score that Alma gave to Mengelberg at the 1920 Concertegbouw cycle.

[barryguerrero]

"Maybe give Horenstein some credit for performing it when it was hardly ever done"    .     .     .  Certainly! I suppose we could say the same for Barbirolli. I just think both of them fall way short on M7, but I know there are others who rave about them. In general, I like both of them. The Horenstein M8 is pretty amazing for 1959 - even it's sound quality.