Nézet-Séguin Philadelphia Orchestra M8 to be Released (FINALLY!)

[Prospero]

In the Universal critical edition, what is called a “luftpause” in this post is indicated as an apostrophe running down the page just before the bar line in all instruments except the percussion. This is noted in another entry. That suggests a light breath rather than the longer pause that might be called a “luftpause." So this may be a subtle articulation indication rather than a structural one.

Evidently there are many manuscript additions in the sources of M8, some by Mahler as well as others. One would probably have to be a fully informed textual editor to appraise the situation. The textual complexity, as in the M5, makes for a good number of score detail uncertainties. There are, then, many textual as well as interpretive possibilities as we generally know. Perhaps certainty is not available in many instances.

[erikwilson7]

30-second samples of each track are now available on Presto Music. There are 32 tracks.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8713836--mahler-symphony-no-8

[barryguerrero]

In Part I, I think both the "accende lumen sensibus" and "gloria" samples sound quite good. It's definitely the big-boned Philadelphia sound. In Part II, I like the bass-baritone (Relyea). Most of the tracks sound pretty decent - it's hard to tell from little snippets.

[Konsgaard]

Ok, I've now heard the whole symphony as it has just been released. I can't believe I will say this, but I've heard some good things here - lots of detail, some odd instrumental highlighting that I personally liked, etc. I will write a detailed review and will make up my mind when I listen again and pay particular attention to the singing.

Unfortunately, the recorded sound leaves a lot to be desired (I listened to the 24 bit version) and the fact that this is a live recording is no excuse for the annoying coughing that could have been edited out (especially in the finale and the quieter sections as I've said before). And my second complaint has to do with the organ that, again in the finale, does not have much of an impact. From what people said above I gather that the organ was very present in the live concert (in the finale), but this is not the case here. Plus the fact that the audience erupts to a wild applause just before the last note fades away.

I will listen again carefully tomorrow to see if the performance is so good to render the above points, regarding the recorded sound, unimportant.

A review will follow soon.

[James Meckley]

Throughout this thread I've been puzzled by the divergence of opinion regarding the organ balance and have looked forward to hearing it myself in it's official release. I just acquired it as a download (in my case the 16/44.1 version) and, after one straight-through audition and then a recheck of several key passages, here's my assessment of the organ sound:

1) There's an impressive amount of organ fundamental—this recording is way above average in that regard, though it might not be fully appreciated when listening on a system deficient in the bottom octave.

2) Whether because of registration or microphone placement, the organ lacks considerable mid-range and upper mid-range presence, making it seem "recessed" when compared with other M8 recordings.

Overall, despite some odd choral balances here and there, I find this performance very satisfying.

[barryguerrero]

You beat me to it, James. I listened to much of it at Spotify tonight ('free' Spotify, so I'm not getting the higher resolution). I agree with all three of your points. The organ is very present on my computer sound system (it has a small subwoofer).  I'm quite satisfied and I look forward to getting the actual CD in the mail. I only have two minor complaints.

First, as with nearly every single recording of M8, the children's chorus simply isn't big enough (Mahler had nearly 300 kids in 1910). This is mostly a problem in Part I's concluding "Gloria" section. Second, Anthony Dean Griffey is not my favorite tenor for M8 - not by a long shot. That said, I think he's better here than on the MTT/SFS recording. Beyond, I just the 'big boned' sound of this performance and its overall 'optimistic' feel.

[Konsgaard]

Just to clarify. I didn't say the organ is not audible throughout. It is only barely audible in the Alles Vergangliche finale. Not that it matters a lot though, Rattle and others also have a barely audible organ. For a different approach, listen to Bertini's splendidly captured organ for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UnrMddufKo

James Meckley above is spot on when he says that "Whether because of registration or microphone placement, the organ lacks considerable mid-range and upper mid-range presence, making it seem "recessed" when compared with other M8 recordings." I also think this is true. But with the upper mid-range and mid-range nearly non-existent, what is left really? But this is nitpicking. What bothers me most is the coughing, espeically when other recording labels always make sure to remove any audience noise in their live recordings.

[erikwilson7]

Here's my two cents, for what they're worth.

The performance itself is monumental, beaten only maybe by Bertini's transcendent performance. All of the ensembles were on their A-game that night, and I can assume that this was the United States M8 performance of a lifetime. I can tell this was just about as good as it gets. Yannick N.-S. brings all of this off exceptionally well too. My favorite moment was how slow he took the Äußerst langsam. Adagissimo/"Dir, der Unberührbaren" sections, and the symphony's coda (as I've previously stated).

Now my gripe with this recording: the sound quality. I listened to this recording on the Idagio streaming service, downloaded lossless FLAC and with noise-canceling Bose headphones (wired up, in case of any lossy Bluetooth). I agree with Konsgaard about the overall sound, coughing, and the organ for the most part. The low-range pedal tones are unbelievable, but everything else is somewhat absent. I think what James Meckley stated about the organ just about nailed it. Also, why is there so much background noise? There wasn't much coughing during the quiet parts until the "Alles Vergängliche" when suddenly four people in the audience caught the flu. It's like there was one mic placed high above the entire stage à la BBC/Horenstein. Okay, I'm joking about the last two things. Anyway, that or this entire recording is taken directly from some sort of broadcast. There are some moments when the orchestra is captured exceptionally well, but just like the Eschenbach M2 there seems to be a loss of cymbals in the mix. ALSO, there is an intrusively consistent fuzz throughout the entire recording that is especially noticeable at quieter moments, and along with the fuzz the audio stutters throughout. It's in the same spots too; it wasn't just my circumstantial listening experience. This enhances my belief that this recording was ripped from a broadcast or something, though I'm probably wrong.

Overall an extremely fine performance from all involved. This recording is special, but I just wish the sound quality was much better.

[barryguerrero]

Since I assume that the fancy organ in Verizon Hall can do pretty much anything you ask the organist to do, perhaps N.-S. shares my preference that the pedal notes be quite strong, but less so for the mid and upper notes. Not because I don't like organ, but because those registers are already thick enough with other stuff going on. That's just a preference. I do, however, share E.W.'s and Konsgaard's enthusiasm foe the Bertini M8 recording. Those who have known me for a long time, know that I was beating that drum decades ago. For me, the greatest ending of all is on the Markus Stenz M8 (also from Cologne). On the other hand, the recording I think captures the organ best throughout "Alles vergaengliche" is the Jonathan Nott one from Bamberg (and it's a very good, overall recording). All that said, I love how N.-S. handles the very final Eb chord of the entire symphony - the way he tapers in the organ, followed by the upper brass, followed by a crescendo on the bass drum roll. It truly keeps that final chord dynamic to the cut-off. 

As for the intrusive noises on the recording, I'd rather they be there than have DG greatly process the sound further. These are the hazards of doing a live recording. They could have used more directional microphones, but those also make a recording sound more artificial. For the sake of recording purposes, I would have preferred that they had asked the audience to wait five seconds before applauding. But I prefer this to the Tilson-Thomas, where I'm quite sure they dubbed in a separate session for the very end, sans audience (it's so sterile sounding). Regardless, this one is good enough that I can jettison one or two other ones that have been hanging around in my collection, gathering dust.

[Konsgaard]

I am not sure if you are aware with the BR-Klassik label and their Jansons recordings. Most of them, nearly all, are live recordings. You will never hear any cough or audience noise. I don't know what is wrong with DG nowadays, most live recordings they released last year suffer from horrendous audience and stage noise. Also, in the present recording I can hear the conistent fuzz Erik Wilson mentions. And I also hear some sound distortion in certain tracks. Very weird! It's a pity because this could have been an excellent Mahler 8.

[erikwilson7]

I agree about the BR-Klassik recordings. They do a fantastic job of turning a live concert performance into a studio-like experience. Their Nézet-Séguin M1 is case in point. The Ádám Fischer team (C-Avi) also does quite a great job; I think the only audience noise I’ve heard in the whole cycle is a single muffled cough during their M8 “Alles Vergängliche.” Besides light shuffling between movements.

I would like to reiterate that I think this is a pretty incredible performance (just about as good as M8 can and should be). I just have several issues with the audio.

I also agree with Barry about the organ; that one in particular is one of the finest in the US and I’m sure it has full capabilities. Perhaps it was an interpretive choice on Nézet-Séguin’s part. Either way I love those pedal tones. That’s basically the only reason I still often revisit the Eschenbach/Philly M2: the amazing organ.

And about the applause... yes I do agree that they should have asked the audience to wait a couple of seconds. But I also love the immediate enthusiasm.

This recording is turning out to be more controversial than I expected. I also think that’s exactly what we need from the recording industry: something that’s going to go against some expectations and spice things up a bit. This M8 recording is kind of a hark back to the way live performances used to sound. Almost like a... neo-classical CD 

[barryguerrero]

It may possibly that DG engineers didn't do the recording. When the cd arrives, I'll look at those credits.
N.-S.'s contract with DG was renewed after the M8 performances happened. Anyway, I'm not really hearing much that seems to be interfering on my system. Also, I'm not trying to talk others into liking it. At this stage of my life, all I care is if it works for me, and that others not try to shove Solti/CSO or MTT/SFS down my throat. Not a fan of either in Mahler.

[James Meckley]

Still curious, I located my copy of the original radio broadcast on WRTI for comparison with the DG release. The broadcast is not pleasant to listen to because of WRTI's heavy-handed (and unnecessary) application of audio compression and limiting, but the impression one gets of the organ sound is quite different from the DG. The organ in the broadcast has  presence and immediacy lacking in the DG release, while it retains its very impressive low-frequency contribution. This gives the broadcast recording a more normal organ/orchestra balance when compared with other M8 CDs and broadcasts, (e.g., the new Gergiev Munich release).

There are other differences as well. To name just a couple, the trombone section is not so prominent though still impressive, and the tam-tam is much more present in the mix.

For the record, Nézet-Séguin led four performances of M8 in Philadelphia, on March 10, 11, 12 & 13, 2016

[barryguerrero]

I'll keep both. But for practicality reasons, I'll probably 'go to' the DG issue every time since it has 32 tracks on it. Once I really know a recording, I often times skip the duller bits (limited time). Superficial, yes. I'm just one of Beecham's people: I don't like music, I just like the noise it makes.