BPO Mahler set: my general thought

[John Kim]

Listening to Dudamel's M3rd and Nezet-Seguin's M4th it just dawned on me. Maybe the Berlin Philharmonic is finally regaining its old great sound of the Karajan era?

[erikwilson7]

Are you saying that Abbado's and Rattle's reigns were sort of a 'diversion' from their old, great Karajan sound? I think I agree, though I've never been big on any Mahler by Abbado or Rattle, save for a few here and there.

[John Kim]

Erik,

Yes, IMO Abbado & Rattle (to a larger degree) were a diversion from the Karajan/BPO sound. Abbado was a fresh change but not Rattle, I am afraid.

John

[erikwilson7]

Agreed there, absolutely. I don't suspect that this return to form is the result of Kirill Petrenko, however. Perhaps it's just as simple as Abbado's and Rattles' influences being gone, I don't know.

[barryguerrero]

I don't think it's a conscious or deliberate attempt to sound more like the Karajan era. For one thing, I think there's a huge difference between the sound quality on these Mahler recordings, and the dry, desiccated sound quality that DG and EMI were routinely producing from the Philharmonie. If anything, I think these recordings capture a quality that's closer to how they used to sound when DG recorded them in the Jesus Christus Kirche. There's also another factor which I think very few people are prepared to accept or even discuss: much of Abbado's Mahler IS very desiccated sounding, irrespective of what orchestra was front of him (less so with his late Lurcerne recordings). I think you're hearing the B.P.O. play Mahler closer to how they really sound in the Philharmonie.

[erikwilson7]

I wonder why Abbado's Mahler was recorded that way, with a desiccated sound. Is it DG? I don't believe so, given their work on the Boulez recordings around the same time. Boulez's DG Mahler recordings are somewhat dry, but I wouldn't go as far to call them desiccated. I don't think it's the BPO either, because Rattle's EMI recordings with them around the same time are meaty and dynamic (I'm thinking his M2 and M9). Maybe it's a choice of Abbado's.

[barryguerrero]

It's impossible to fully determine, but I would say it's a case of both Abbado's sound concept and DG's sound concept. Perhaps all this is why the Berlin Phil. decided to take matters into their own hands. I'm sure there wasn't a shortage of good audio engineers about.

Don't forget that Boulez's M8 not only had a different orchestra (Berlin Staatskapelle), but was recorded in the Jesus Christus Kirche.

The Abbado/Berlin Mahler recordings were made 'live', while the Boulez Ravel/Stravinsky items (Berlin) were studio recordings. That has to account for some of the differences. Also, Abbado's Berlin Phil. M3 was recorded in London's Royal Festival Hall - hardly the most flattering acoustic. Abbado's BPO M4 is a complete 'non-starter' for two reasons: the scherzo falls as flat as a pancake, and Renee Fleming sounds remarkably AWFUL in the vocal finale. His earlier Vienna one with F. von Stade is far better.

[erikwilson7]

The Rattle BPO M8 “Alles Vergängliche” is on Spotify.

[barryguerrero]

It's not perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than the truly dull Abbado one. It's similar to Rattle's Birmingham one, but without those horrible sounding Paiste tam-tam smashes.

[erikwilson7]

That, and he slams on the breaks in the measures leading up to the tam strokes to almost Bertini speeds. To Rattle’s credit, the score says fließend after the choirs sing their last line, so it’s technically right to play that part in a more flowing manner. I wouldn’t do it this fast, but it’s valid.

[erikwilson7]

There’s a huge bass drum whack to button the last chord. I like that, but the chord is held a bit long. Nitpicky things, but yes overall it sounds great.

[barryguerrero]

.    .    .   I don't know if I'll go with 'great', so I'll reserve judgement until I hear the rest of it. If the rest of it is good, the ending will be good enough for me. At any rate, I think it's easily out in front of the Addado (possibly the most boring M8 ever made).

[erikwilson7]

Oh, I agree. I was using the word “great” very casually. In all seriousness I’d say it’s “pretty good.” Maybe like a 7/10 execution of the “Alles Vergängliche.”

[erikwilson7]

I was surprised to find out that the second tam and cymbal clash is a bit late, but at least it’s together. It’s the same performance as what’s on their website. I think I mentioned this exact thing in a thread several months ago, hoping they might adjust the timing on that somehow or use a different night’s performance.

[barryguerrero]

You bring up a big pet-peev with me. These symphony percussionists can play anything on mallets, yet they sometimes forget to use common sense when they're crashing and banging things. Also, the conductors should have the foresight to tell the percussionists: "don't anticipate with the cymbals, as it takes the big gong longer to speak. If anything, come in just slightly behind the tam-tam". Personally, when a big, dark sounding Wuhan is being used, I'd switch the cymbals over to two suspended cymbals, played by four mallets (each cymbal struck on opposite sides). I think that would make for a better match.