B.G. on Boulez M8/II (I've listened through it twice)

[barry guerrero]

I've listened to Boulez's Part 2 all the way through now. It's quite expansive: 61 minutes! Yet, the earlier Wagner-like passages have more tension to them than on Nagano's equally slow account (I like Nagano's ending a bit more, however). The baritone soloist is not so good, relatively speaking, but the bass-baritone is excellent (Robert Holl). The more Mendelssohn like passages - starting with the first entrance of the childrens chorus (reinforced by the women) - are surprisingly light and supple. As I mentioned before, the best stretch is starting from the tenor's first big solo; continuing on through the orchestral passage for high strings, harp, and harmonium (chamber organ), and finishing up with Gretchen making her appearance through the ether that Mahler conjures up via his amazing and unusual orchestration. For my taste, the penitant women passages are just a tad too slow, with the voices themselves sounding too close. Those women aren't so evenly matched either - some are better at this sort of writing than others. But things do pick up again with an outstanding "blicket auf" section, with tenor Johan Botha turning in an even finer performance than earlier on. I just wish that DG had paid for one more take of the symphony's concluding postlude. The tam-tam is too distant - almost inaudible, really - while the offstage trumpets sound too local; they should be farther afield. Such an obvious balance problem could have been easily fixed. I do like the big bass drum crescendo on the symphony's final measure, however.

All in all, I can't say that this new Boulez M8 over-rides my already established favorites. In just plain-old two channel stereo, I think that the best overall recommendation might be hearing Rattle's M8 on the expanded range DVD (his "redbook" CD is way too constricted sounding). Nagano has the better Part 1, but Rattle is excellent throughout Part 2. Antoni Wit (Naxos) has the best compromise, I suppose. And I really do like the pacing and priorities of the Bertini M8. 

[sperlsco]

Thanks for the review(s).  I'm beginning to get very excited about this one.  Good singing, especially from the tenor and Gretchen are really crucial to me in M8 (yet I still love the Nagano, despite the terrible Gretchen).  Unlike you, I really like a moderate or slow  pace to the section with the three penitent women (one of the few areas I do not like in the Bertini/Cologne).  Big bass drum crescendos at the closing passage are also very nice touches to me.  Does Boulez have good bass drum crescendos leading into each of the final three cymbal/tam-tam crashes, or just the final note?    It is a shame that the tam-tams are inaudible, though. 

[barry guerrero]

"Does Boulez have good bass drum crescendos leading into each of the final three cymbal/tam-tam crashes, or just the final note?"

At that spot, the bass drum is doing a steady roll, so there are no more crescendos indicated for it until the very last measure.  But unlike his Vienna M2, there exists a healthy crescendo in that final measure, indeed (in M2, the crescendo is indicated in the second timpanist's part only, which is why it's extremely critical for any conductor to make certain that it does happen!).

On the Segerstam M8, he has the bass drummer do big, rolling crescendos into each of those last three strokes, just as you're asking about. But then he has no bass drum underneath the offstage trumpets:  Eb; (descending) Bb; (ascending) C - if I'm recalling the notes correctly. So, that at the end of each shining, offstage "C", the bass drum begins its crescendo, leading into the next cymbal/tam-tam stroke. It's a strange effect, but it works.

Barry

[barry guerrero]

As interesting as the ending to Boulez's Part 1 is (and loud!), I'd say that Nagano executes it even better. For me, Part 1 is the highlight of Nagano's M8. In Part II, while conducted at equally slow tempi, Boulez definitely has more intensity in the first 20 minutes of the movement than Nagano. However, as I also indicated, the baritone solo - the first solo - isn't all that great. But on the other hand, I really don't like the tenor on the Nagano M8 - that was a big hang-up for me. Botha is clearly the better of the two tenors. Unfortunately, as I also indicated, the penintant women are recorded rather close up on the Boulez. I don't mind a slower tempo either, as long as the women are not covering up the beautiful and interesting orchestral detail. I feel that Urmana is way, WAY too forward on Boulez's "DLvdE", for example (I also don't think that she's half as good as many others seem to feel that she is).

I actually find it easier to focus on Mahler's fabulous orchestration behind the penitant women, if it's conducted at a somewhat more "flowing" tempo. It's hard to get the continuity in the one's mind, if you're just crawling from one orchestral entrance to the next. There's also another problem for me: Mahler's vocal writing is just plain ugly! Clearly, he writes for the penitant women as though they're part of the entire orchestral fabric. In fact, what Mahler writes is really just a slower variant of some of Beethoven's uglier vocal writing towards the end of his "Ode To Joy". Obviously, Mahler's chord changes are more "find de siecle"-ish (turn of the century), but the female voices are doing the same sort of "inverted intervals" business. Let's face it, "Vissi D'Arte" it ain't. But yes, it can be quite beautiful; if the singing is done softly and gently.

[Leo K]

Mahler's vocal writing is just plain ugly! Clearly, he writes for the penitant women as though they're part of the entire orchestral fabric. In fact, what Mahler writes is really just a slower variant of some of Beethoven's uglier vocal writing towards the end of his "Ode To Joy". Obviously, Mahler's chord changes are more "find de siecle"-ish (turn of the century), but the female voices are doing the same sort of "inverted intervals" business. Let's face it, "Vissi D'Arte" it ain't. But yes, it can be quite beautiful; if the singing is done softly and gentiy.

Yes, I have always thought the same way!

[sperlsco]

Clearly, he writes for the penitant women as though they're part of the entire orchestral fabric.

Although I "generally" understand what is being sung about at each section of the symphony, the voices are usually just instruments to me (i.e. I do not pay specific attention to the words they are singing).  So yes, to me they voices are definitely part of the orchestral fabric. 

BTW, Sinopoli is another conductor that has the bass drum play crescendos into each of the final three tam-tam strokes.  It makes for a wonderful and overwhelming effect in my book. 

[barry guerrero]

"BTW, Sinopoli is another conductor that has the bass drum play crescendos into each of the final three tam-tam strokes.  It makes for a wonderful and overwhelming effect in my book"

Gee, I don't remember hearing something like that. I'll go back and check - I still have a burnt copy.

Barry

[barry guerrero]

.     .   it may not my "dream" Mahler 8, but it sure sounds good on my Bose noise cancelling heaphones! I think that the great acoustics and relative intimacy of the Jesus Christus Kirche, help make this one great for headphone listening.

Barry

[Vatz Relham]

Yes, it does sound very good with headphones (Sennheiser) I listened to Part I on headphones and most of Part II with speakers, and I think I prefere headphones, not that it sounds bad with my infinity speakers either, but headphones allow more detail to come through.
The performance though is another matter, for my taste it just seems too slow and lacks some oomph mainly in Part II. Boulez seems to want to emphisize the textures of sound and sonic details over forward momentum, more verticle than linear. But that may actually please some listeners, I'm more in tune with Bertini's and Rattle's approach, even Jarvi's account is not too fast for me. Having said that, the Boulez still is a joy to listen too, you get to indulge in the cosmic beauty of sound and relish the gorgeous choral singing, and Mahler's contrapuntal writing. All the soloists are good even De Young was not too wobbly. I like the deep bells in Part I and good electronic organ. It is dissapointing that the big tam-tam smashes at the end are for the most part drowned out but the brass is very good.

Vatz

[sperlsco]

(NOTE: I decided to merge two of the threads on the Boulez M8.) 

I was able to listen to this once through this morning.  First off, there is a lot to like here, much of it mentioned by Barry and Vatz.  Boulez' steadier tempos work well in Part I.  The singing is all really good (I even like the baritone that seems to bother BG).  The tenor and the Gretchen-soprano are absolutely first rate.  Boulez really brings out the details and colors of the orchestration.  Those bells in part I are indeed excellent.  The section after Blicket Auf and leading into the Chorus mysticus is beautifully played and conducted.   

There are several items that I do not like so much (some also mentioned by BG and Vatz).  The ending to Gloria is too drawn out for me.  The Poco Adagio is slow, steady, and full of details, but never really builds to anything.  Contrast Boulez with Nagano here.  Nagano goes very slow at the beginning of the Poco Adagio, but really builds some momentum to the middle section.  The absence of the tam-tams at the ending is always bothersome to me, but I still like Boulez' way with the overall ending and tempos.  The offstage brass is pretty much front and center.  The organ seemed much bigger at the beginning of the symphony versus the ending. 

The sound is nice, but really not comparable to the realistic 3D soundstage presented by the Nagano SACD.  The performance will be well worth another listen this week--this time in the car!