Author Topic: Harding/Mahler4  (Read 16632 times)

Wunderhorn

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Harding/Mahler4
« on: January 15, 2007, 01:23:56 AM »
I've purchase this compact disc at BMG and was curious if it is conducted with a reduced orchestra? I thought Mahler intended his 4th for smaller orchestra and that the 'Mahler Chamber Orchestra' bloomed to preform this specific work? I might be wrong.

I think the recording is slightly idiosyncratic though the tempos are usually fine. The strings have a borderline mechanical quality, (precise, well synchronized) and in the Wunderhorn Song 'Das irdische Leben', Roschemann acts out the words unfortunately. Overall, this recording will do for now, until I get something better.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 07:32:23 AM »
I agree that Harding's commercial recording is disappointing. There is a pirate from a performance of M4 that he did in Leipzig (Gewandhaus Orchestra) that's far, far better. If you'd like a copy of that, leave me a private message. I don't know who the soprano was, but she was a definite improvement. It's really quite good.

As far as instrumentation for M4 goes, Mahler makes no mention of reducing the size of the string section. There are no trombones or tuba. The brass are only four horns and three trumpets. Mahler calls for only three each of the woodwinds, with the exception of four flutes (parts 1 & 2 double on piccolo). The high Eb clarinet writing is included in the second clarinet part, and the 3rd clarinet part has the bass clarinet writing included. My guess is that it's common to have a fourth clarinetist on hand. The contrabassoon writing is included in the 3rd bassoon part. In my opinion, you can never have too many bassoon players. The English Horn (Cor Anglais) writing is included in the third oboe part. Only one set of timpani is involved (the first three symponies require two sets of timpani each). However, you need at least four utility percussionists. In the first movement, leading up to the climax of the development section, you need five separate players to cover timpani; glockenspiel; triangle; tam-tam (gong), and bass drum. In non-professional orchestras, if necessary, you could probably teach one of the string players to cover one of those utility parts, without too much hastle. There's no indication to double the harp part (only one part). However, I think it's not uncommon to have two harps on board.  Still, this is a lot of less instrumentation than what Mahler calls for in his first three symphonies.

One bit of oddness in terms of the instrumentation: for the second movement's solo violin part, it's common practice for the principle violinist to have a second violin on hand, that's already been tuned one step higher (as the part calls for).

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2007, 11:40:49 PM »
It's been a while since I last listened to this, but I remember liking it more than most other people.  Harding chooses very good tempos throughout, and the chamber orchestra makes for a unique sound to this M4.  The strings did seem to lack the body found in other M4's.  I really can't remember much about the soloist though. 

I wouldn't make this a first choice recommendation for someone looking to get their first, second, or even fifth copy of M4, but would indeed recommend it for someone wanting to add to their M4 collection (especially if you can get it at the $7 BMG Music Club price like me). 
Scott

BorisG

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 09:01:04 PM »
It's been a while since I last listened to this, but I remember liking it more than most other people.  Harding chooses very good tempos throughout, and the chamber orchestra makes for a unique sound to this M4.  The strings did seem to lack the body found in other M4's.  I really can't remember much about the soloist though. 

I wouldn't make this a first choice recommendation for someone looking to get their first, second, or even fifth copy of M4, but would indeed recommend it for someone wanting to add to their M4 collection (especially if you can get it at the $7 BMG Music Club price like me). 

I found the Harding M4 to be a much-needed radical departure. It deserves more than a supplemental nod.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 09:24:59 PM »
If what you're interested is a, "much needed radical departure", I'd say go for the Norrington instead. That's just my two cents. Again, there's a pirate of M4 with Harding/Gewandhaus Leipzig that's far superior to the Virgin issue, including the soprano.

Barry

BorisG

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 10:35:20 PM »
If what you're interested is a, "much needed radical departure", I'd say go for the Norrington instead. That's just my two cents. Again, there's a pirate of M4 with Harding/Gewandhaus Leipzig that's far superior to the Virgin issue, including the soprano.

Barry

Norrington, thanks no thanks. After that two-cents recommendation, I don't know what to think of your "far superior" rating for the pirate Leipzig and Harding. I can imagine that atmosphere being quite different to that of the Virgin, meaning less intimate, less edge, more instruments. And, there's no problem here with Dorothea Roschmann.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 07:45:16 AM »
You didn't say "great", you said "radically different". There's a difference. I happen to think that the Norrington M4 is surprisingly good - same for Harding's Leipzig M4. Unlike yourself, I, at least, have made the comparisons. But since you don't want to trust my judgement on something that I would offer to you for free (maybe mailing cost, is all), I won't offer you a copy then - saves me the trouble! That way, you can continue to feel that Harding's Virgin M4 is superior without ever having made the comparison.  Keep going, and you can join Tony Duggan:  review recordings you haven't even listened to yet.  :P

And, by the way, nowhere did Mahler ask for a reduced string section for the fourth symphony. If you think so, I'd like for you to provide the evidence. But let me ask you this: what would be the results of having a reduced string section?  .   .   .   .   woodwinds that are easier to hear, perhaps? It just so happens that the woodwinds are very forward sounding on the Norrington M4. But since you've already made your mind up about it, you'll never know. But I'll also be honest enough to admit that Norrington's no vibrato policy (it's just for the strings), just isn't a huge issue with me. And, in that regard, it is "radically different" - your criteria, not mine.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 08:26:43 AM by barry guerrero »

BorisG

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 05:20:56 PM »
You didn't say "great", you said "radically different". There's a difference. I happen to think that the Norrington M4 is surprisingly good - same for Harding's Leipzig M4. Unlike yourself, I, at least, have made the comparisons. But since you don't want to trust my judgement on something that I would offer to you for free (maybe mailing cost, is all), I won't offer you a copy then - saves me the trouble! That way, you can continue to feel that Harding's Virgin M4 is superior without ever having made the comparison.  Keep going, and you can join Tony Duggan:  review recordings you haven't even listened to yet.  :P

And, by the way, nowhere did Mahler ask for a reduced string section for the fourth symphony. If you think so, I'd like for you to provide the evidence. But let me ask you this: what would be the results of having a reduced string section?  .   .   .   .   woodwinds that are easier to hear, perhaps? It just so happens that the woodwinds are very forward sounding on the Norrington M4. But since you've already made your mind up about it, you'll never know. But I'll also be honest enough to admit that Norrington's no vibrato policy (it's just for the strings), just isn't a huge issue with me. And, in that regard, it is "radically different" - your criteria, not mine.

Sorry you were confused about my "radically different" comment. I coupled it with a "within reason" on another thread, but not so on this one. My oversight...or undersight.

Thank you for your Leipzig description. Regarding "trust" in any kind of listening operation or opinion (including my own, as others may see it), I find it neither here nor there. It can be interesting to read, but doesn't mean much until the recording's been heard. In this instance, it wasn't a big enough deal to be much concerned about. I'm happy with the Virgin product, and I felt I'd heard enough of the Leipzig over the years, to suspect their pirate wouldn't be as adventurous as the Virgin. My tastes, my suspicions. Make what you want of not hearing a recording.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 05:58:39 PM »
"My tastes, my suspicions. Make what you want of not hearing a recording".

That's fine, as long as that's how it's expressed. My "suspicions" were that Norrigton's Mahler would be crap. Imagine my pleasant surprise when I discovered that it wasn't. I expected absolutely zero of his Mahler 5th. But in some respects, it's actually the best of the three so far - a case of my suspicions being wrong. I wouldn't make them my first recommendations by any means, but they're certainly listenable.

 


 
 
 

Wunderhorn

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 01:23:31 PM »
I ended up getting Levine's M4 to replace this Harding's. I've heard from several that it is an excellent version, and it has been released again as a classic recording by RCA. My choice ultimately was it or Maazel's M4; Hopefully I made a wise decision.  ???

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Harding/Mahler4
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 07:26:29 PM »
Get them both! The Maazel can be found for little money, so check Amazon. Libraries will often times have the Maazel also. I prefer the Levine, but the Maazel is good for a somewhat slower one. I like the sleigh bells on Maazel/VPO; they're lower pitched than usual, and have a real "crackly" sound to them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 07:31:16 PM by barry guerrero »

 

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