Author Topic: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie  (Read 11082 times)

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« on: June 07, 2008, 04:05:48 AM »
While this is disturbing news, please know that there's at least one other concert building in Berlin that has really good acoustics. I know because I played in it, clear back in 1978.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/world/europe/21berlin.html?em&ex=1211515200&en=c3d192c9a13ed285&ei=5087%0A

Barry

Offline je-b

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2008, 08:45:15 AM »
The damage caused by the fire wasn't anywhere nearly as severe as people originally thought it would be. Actually, the entire concert / performance business has by now returned to the Philharmonie and there are no traces of the fire visible anywhere (I was there last weekend for a BPO performance with Mariss Jansons).
The problem with the other Berlin concert venues (i.e., the "Konzerthaus" at the Gendarmenmarkt, the three opera houses, and the "Sendesaal" of the Radio Symphony Orchestra) was just that none of them can house nearly as much audience as the Philharmonie can (2440 seats, that is). And as most of the BPO performances are sold out in advance, you actually have those 2440+ people who don't fit anywhere else. The result was for example that the concert featuring Abbado and Pollini (Beethoven Piano Concerto #4 and Berlioz' "Te Deum") had to take place at the open air "Waldbühne", where they played in front of almost 20,000 people... which I think was rather silly considering particularly the quietness and sensitivity of the Beethoven concerto. Even weirder: Rattle had to be satisfied with an old airport hangar (!) at Tempelhof for his concert featuring works by Berlioz, while the visiting Munich Philharmonic with Christian Thielemann had to move to a vaudeville theater which they had to share with the "Sohodolls" that evening.  ;D
"Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
 In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!"

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 03:55:55 AM »
If you ask me, a good dose of the Sohodolls is precisely Christian Thielemann could use.   ;D

At least we won't get any substandard Mahler from him, because we won't be getting ANY Mahler from him. That suits me fine.

Barry


Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 11:01:47 AM »
An interesting report, je-b; it's too seldom that we get to hear from first-hand sources in Berlin, that serious candidate for the greatest city of music we have on the planet (and greatest orchestra, no matter how DH would rather have it...  :)) It's really too bad our German skills are what they are: too forgotten to follow the serious substantive debates and high-quality journalism promoted by the many papers published in that city and the country.

As for the more individual points, I whole-heartedly agree with Barry. One of the great things about this apparent "Mahler revival" is that Thielemann isn't participating.

PT
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 11:05:21 AM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 02:49:11 PM »
It's not that David or I feel that the BPO is a bad orchestra. Rather, it's that we both feel that the strengths of the BPO don't always work so well for Mahler's music. For me, the BPO often times sounds like an oversized chamber orchestra, rather than a full-blown symphony orchestra. Perhaps the Philharmonie somewhat helps in creating that impression. Obviously, they have excellent strings.

They have nice heft to the low strings, but the low brass don't always match. The trombones don't always cut through when they should, and the tuba has always been undersized for music like Mahler and Prokofiev, where the tuba is treated as an independent super-bass to the entire orchestra. Woodwinds are generally excellent in the BPO (great bassoons), but the oboes too often dominate the aural landscape. In regards to Mahler, the clarinets are sometimes too restrained with Mahler's characteristically high writing for them. There are plenty of times when Mahler wants his clarinets to just cut right through. By and large, their percussion department is pretty good. Yet, I've heard more miscounting mistakes from the kitchen dept. of the BPO, than I've heard from the VPO even (not always the best percussion by any means). One gripe I have is with the BPO is with the horns.

It's not that the horns of the BPO don't play well - obviously, they do - but it's that they're still using those rather small sounding Alexander horns. The Czech Phil., which had used the Alex. double horns for decades, has recently switched over to the expensive but versatile Schimd triple horns (and the VPO are still making the most of their indigenous single F horns). The best sub-section within the BPO's brass section, are the trumpets. I like the trumpets of the BPO far more than those in Vienna.

More than anything - and again, the hall may contribute to this - is that the BPO play with a dark, chocolate-like sound that works well in most Austro-German literature, but is not always to Mahler's benefit. High woodwinds should cut more, as should the low brass. These impressions were very much reinforced in my mind when I saw Barenboim conduct Bruckner 9 with the BPO in 1978.

Obviously, the strings and trumpets were excellent (as were the kettle drums). But the horns sounded much smaller than what I was used to in the states (at that time, most American horn players were using the Conn 8D), and I could hardly hear the tuba at all, even though he had been switching back and forth between two different tubas (what for?). The overall impression was that of hearing Bruckner played by a really great, oversized chamber orchestra.

Just within Berlin itself, both David and I have observed that the other orchestras in town - the DSO Berlin and the Staatskapelle Berlin - while perhaps not nearly so refined sounding as the BPO, often times sound more idiomatic for Mahler's music. This isn't to say that there aren't some obvious exceptions to these general impressions.

Both David and I feel that Karajan's live M9 is hard to beat, as is his 1975 recording of Mahler 5 (I don't feel nearly so strong about Karajan's M4 or M6, just from an interpretive basis). Some of the Haitink/BPO Mahler recordings aren't bad either. I don't care for the Haitink/BPO M6 so much in the first two movements (rather bland), but the last two movements are excellent. Certainly, Rattle's M10 recording with the BPO is pretty much spot-on, even though EMI's mediocre sound quality almost makes a muddle of it. These are solid exceptions to any rule, shall we say.

When it comes to the standard Austro/German rep., obviously the BPO are right at home. Personally, I think that the music of Richard Strauss suits them best. But even for the standard fare (Mozart/Beethoven/Schubert/Brahms/Bruckner, etc.), the Staatskapelle Dresden gives them a real run of their expensive money. In fact, I often times prefer the clearer textures and more burnished brass of the Dresdeners (and again, the halls may be a major factor here).

An interesting comparison can be made with Mahler 6: Abbado/BPO vs. Eschenbach/Philly. While I prefer Abbado's quicker, no-nonse tempi in the inner two movements, I like the sound of Philly in Mahler's music: strong low strings (just like the BPO); great violins (just like the BPO); hefty low brass; big, meaty horns; piercing trumpets (but not screechy sounding); clarinets that aren't afraid to shriek; excellent percussion throughout, etc. Granted, part of that difference is just the better sound quality from Ondine (not to mention Philly's new Verizon Hall). While there's certainly nothing wrong with Berlin's playing of Mahler 6 - for Abbado - from any techincal standpoint (Dave called it "Mahler lite"), I just think that Philly's sound-world is even better suited for the work. Don't get me wrong, I DO like the Abbado/BPO M6, especially when played back in S/A order (which works really well in this particular case).

Anyway, I've got to run. What works great for a Schubert symphony, doesn't always translate for a Mahler one. That's my point.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 02:51:56 PM by barry guerrero »

Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 11:07:30 AM »
Barry, I have to say you are great. To paraphrase what Rudolf Bing once said of Birgit Nilsson, all we need to do is put a couple of words in, and a glorious essay comes out. This one makes a good read for not just one but several evenings of simultaneous listening. Yet I have my couple of mild disagreements (though one representing a diametrically opposed position):

[T]he strengths of the BPO don't always work so well for Mahler's music.... [T]he BPO often times sounds like an oversized chamber orchestra.... Dave called [Abbado's M6] "Mahler lite."

This is exactly what made BPO so special, during Abbado's tenure in general and specifically towards its end. This magnificent orchestra, made to bring worlds to their ends with the power of its playing, became such a fine precision instrument its uniquely refined interpretations started sounding like made by a giant chamber orchestra, with all the shadings, nuances, details, and differentiations of every executable kind (and at times even more...) now rendered audible like never before. But besides that of the sound image, or the substance, so to speak, there was also a structural differentiation, that of individual voices within the sections: a sort of de-homogenization of the orchestral sound that effectively reversed and canceled what Karajan had perfected. To me this represents the greatest achievement to date in bringing about a modern orchestral sound founded on democratic principles. (I'm aware that this carefully cultivated quality is what many critics have also misunderstood as something unintentional and derogatory.) So what you and DH take as a vice (assuming "Mahler lite" expressed a reservation) I would consider a virtue of the highest order, one moreover that in my view provides an ideal match with the music of someone like Mahler precisely.

Today you can hear that "sound" perfected by the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Abbado's handpicked medium for music-making that takes it to an even higher level.

Just within Berlin itself, both David and I have observed that the other orchestras in town - the DSO Berlin and the Staatskapelle Berlin - while perhaps not nearly so refined sounding as the BPO, often times sound more idiomatic for Mahler's music.

I think what is "idiomatic" here is open to debate and at any rate somewhat malleable as a concept. How things were played four hundered, three hundred, two hundred, and one hundred years ago would not sound the same to, or be perceived similarly by, our post-war ears as it did to/by contemporary audiences, so that already relativizes the idea of an "idiomatic" sound to some extent. Moreover in Mahler specifically we have many question marks here and even if you go to those who directly worked with him like Walter or Klemperer the issue isn't that simple there, either. Compare their renditions to each other and then to Mengelberg, let's say. And philosophically there are many issues here as well, such as would the "Austrian" Mahler work for, or be understood at all by, the "American" listeners, or did the latter really have to have someone like Bernstein to make him popular in that particular country, and would there be something wrong in such a translation to begin with or nothing whatsoever. Let's remember we enjoy perhaps still the best Beethoven played by a modern orchestra and Bach performed on instruments tuned differently than in his own time; the audience is today different than then and the music and the sounds are perceived differently, so why not assume that what's idiomatic for Austrians could be anathema for Americans and vice versa?

EMI's mediocre sound quality almost makes a muddle of it.... In fact, I often times prefer the clearer textures and more burnished brass of the Dresdeners (and again, the halls may be a major factor here).... I like the sound of Philly in Mahler's music: strong low strings (just like the BPO); great violins (just like the BPO); hefty low brass; big, meaty horns; piercing trumpets (but not screechy sounding); clarinets that aren't afraid to shriek; excellent percussion throughout, etc. Granted, part of that difference is just the better sound quality from Ondine (not to mention Philly's new Verizon Hall). Dave called it "Mahler lite"), I just think that Philly's sound-world is even better suited for the work.

This brings me to yet another issue. There are many philosophies governing how music and sounds are recorded today and DG represents one approach, EMI another, and Decca/London a third (etc.). They relate to balances, size and shape of the "soundstage," "wetness" vs. "dryness" of the acoustics, synthetical (distant) vs. analytical (spot-miked) imaging, all that. Same player on the same piano, even, sounds drastically different on two different labels and even on one and the same label but when recorded at different times and by different teams. It's not really always a skills issue but about the "philosophy" or approach relied on by the production and engineering team (especially the Tonmeister role). So while I concede the point, this is just to sort of remind us that there are more factors than the mere players themselves, the instruments they use, the conductor, and the hall acoustics in the creation of a specific "sound" of some particular orchestra, when it comes to listening to recordings and not in the audience (or on stage as you've yourself so enviously done). And the variety of results attained is itself evidence of the fact that the whole notion of a "good sound" can be a very contested issue and at times so subjective it can't be agreed on at all, when the factors going into it multiply as much as in a typical home listening situation dependent on small-sized sound reproduction equipment placed in a regular room of a human home...

PT
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:24:03 AM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 05:28:17 PM »
Certainly you're rebuttal is well considered. But I think that the evidence to support what I'm saying can be found on many of the  BPO's Mahler recordings. Also, my criticisms are based very much on what the composer asks for via the scores. If the low brass brass aren't playing out, or supporting the bottom of the orchestra as they should be, that can't be called an asset because it's also subtle or refined sounding. For me, the BPO is an orchestra that often times sounds better playing soft, than they do loud. To be more blunt about that, the louder the music gets, the worse they often times sound. Dave has made that very same observation.

A good example of what I'm talking about here happens in the Haitink/BPO M2. The ending is very good, but much of the "march of the risen dead souls" passage (5th movement) sounds overtaxed and strained. There's no sense of there being some power left in reserve. The entire section just sort of poops out at the end of it (before the "grosse appel")

An excellent example of the percussion miscounting their parts happens in the studio recording of M3 with Haitink (not the live concert out on DVD). The cymbal players makes some HUGE mistakes in the first movement (they're incredibly obvious). Then the person covering the tambourine gets lost during the "southern storm" fantasy section (the end of the development passage) in the first movement, and just starts improvising their part all over the place. It's kind of fun to listen to, actually - if you know the part. The lack of heft in the trombones and horns always makes itself apparent at the climax of the long brass chorale in the sixth movement - right where the last cymbal crash is located. Here's an example of precisely what I've been talking about: the trumpets are excellent sounding, but the horns and trombones don't keep up - or support the bottom. Compare this same passage - regardless of who's conducting - against the VPO on the Boulez M3. The VPO trumpets don't sound quite so nice, but the horns blanket the aural landscape with their typically huge sound, and the trombones just blast their two-part harmony right out there (they don't use German trombones in the VPO any more, so I don't know if that makes any difference or not). As a result, not only is there more tension, but you're able to hear the complexity of the harmony throughout. There's no issue of subtlety or refinement needed here. Harmony is harmony. Dynamics are dynamics (and of course, later on, just the opposite is true, where the BPO timpani always sound better than the VPO timpani - at least to my ears).

Another good example is the "DLvdE" with Levine conducting - possibly the dullest Mahler recording ever made (the Abbado M8 gives it a good run though). Everybody just plays the notes, and that's it - nothing more. There's no tension; there's no mystery (the oboes are characteristically too loud), nuthin' - its just there. Certainly the BPO can play "DLvdE", as they did a very good with it for Giulini.

But as I also said, there does exist a few excellent Mahler performances with the BPO, captured on disc. But what I truly have a hard time understanding, is why many German or European listeners can't comprehend the notion that you don't have to be the BPO to turn in an outstanding performance of anything! In my mind, The Cologne Radio S.O. - under Gary Bertini - easily matches anything that the BPO has turned out in Mahler, and on a far more consistent basis. I have always contended that in Europe - and sometimes everywhere else - it's the so-called second tier of orchestras - dotted throughout the German landscape with state funded radio orchestras - that often times turn in the best and most idiomatic Mahler performances. Perhaps it's simply a case of them fighting to justify their own existence - a case of #2 trying harder. Regardless, good is good!

« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 06:35:07 PM by barry guerrero »

Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2008, 01:37:15 PM »
Incidentally, to my ears that Levine recording is a total flop as well, perhaps the single biggest letdown I've encountered yet in my history with recorded music. It's really weird; there is no reason whatsoever for it to be so off, but it is. Big-time. I don't think I ever managed to get through it all at one listen until I already had to dump it, and quick. Again, what a bizarrely poor performance.

Which reminds me of one of the favorite provocations by my grad school philosophy professor: that Jimmy Levine was (is) the biggest talent on the music scene left wholly unused (by the bored conductor himself).

As to the rest, I'm going to keep your words in mind when next time in a Thematic Listening Mood. It's all very interesting, but I think you yourself seem to be making the point that it's the conductor's fault, not the orchestra's.

And let's remember orchestras themselves undergo what is sometimes even a radical change over a relatively short time span (excepting that chauvinistic bastion called VPO...). Look at the Berlin Phil from the end of the Karajan era to when Abbado left it, its demographics and "sound" are something totally different. Where is the continuity, in what do we recognize its identity?

PT
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 01:41:57 PM by Polarius T »

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2008, 03:31:35 PM »
Uhmmm.... strange because I like the Levine DLVDE very much. To my ears the playing of BPO is hard to beat and I thought the singing was very fine too. Levine's interpretation may strike as a little too 'cool' but otherwise excellent. But then it could be just me who prefers (mostly) objective readings in this piece ;)

John,

Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 05:08:19 PM »
Well, maybe I'd now hear it a bit differently, with the intervening years of listening possibly affecting the perception: last I heard it was right after it came out, so I'm relying on (the notoriously unstable) auditive memory to assess something experienced 10 years ago. But at the time I was really dismayed by the weakness and lack of focus in the performance, not so much the "objectivity" of it if that was there (my current #1 in this is Boulez btw). Interesting though that you find it likeable; maybe I should relisten if opportunity arises. -PT
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 05:11:21 PM by Polarius T »

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2008, 06:22:30 PM »
Well, maybe I'd now hear it a bit differently, with the intervening years of listening possibly affecting the perception: last I heard it was right after it came out, so I'm relying on (the notoriously unstable) auditive memory to assess something experienced 10 years ago. But at the time I was really dismayed by the weakness and lack of focus in the performance, not so much the "objectivity" of it if that was there (my current #1 in this is Boulez btw). Interesting though that you find it likeable; maybe I should relisten if opportunity arises. -PT
Levine's live Berlin recording is certainly one of my favorites along with Barenboim (Chicago), Ormandy (Philly), and Klemperer. But then that's my taste in this piece. The music has already overwhelming message of sadness and poignancy that I find a little much to digest, so I normally look for objective, cool approaches. I find the Levine a perfect example of this. Furthermore, I love the slightly distant sound of Berlin Phil. in this recording, even more than Giulini's celebrated recording with the same orchestra on DG. Norman and Jerusalem are just fine, albeit a touch below the very top. But it is the conducting, orchestra and sound that carry my day here.

John,

Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2008, 10:03:51 PM »
Levine's live Berlin recording is certainly one of my favorites along with Barenboim (Chicago), Ormandy (Philly), and Klemperer. But then that's my taste in this piece. The music has already overwhelming message of sadness and poignancy that I find a little much to digest...

I totally agree with you, John, and not only in the case of this work (though maybe especially with it) but most others, too. I haven't heard the Barenboim (I should & I want to), but the recording that I most often turn to when I simply want to enjoy this work is the Klemperer/EMI one (not least b/c of Christa Ludwig of course, whom the alto parts fit like a glove). When I want to pay more attention to one or another aspect of it, or be more impersonal in my listening attitude, I put on the Boulez. Curiously, this is one of the works, or Mahler works especially, where it's been really hard to find a thoroughly satisfying interpretation. I am not sure why (or in fact I do know: because Abbado never recorded it! :)). I've gone through many in my search, and earlier used to also think that Sinopoli's was a great rendition; but later I found his tempi and rubato inadequately flexible for this work and even overly weighty in his voicing. Or, at another point, Walter's (talking about cool, albeit of a very different kind than Levine for sure). I never warmed up to Giulini in this work (, either...). I can't believe it but slightly fear it's true all the same that that might be because of the adorable Brigitte Fassbaender whom I respect to high heavens but don't seem to be able to enjoy in this work (nor Francisco Araiza for that matter). Haitink's I was fond of for the longest time but then I don't know why it fell by the roadside so quickly -- no reason whatsoever, in retrospect. The others I've heard I found rather more nondescript or couldn't really muster much at all by way of expectations (failed/fulfilled) when it came to listening to them, to even remember very much of them here and now, like with Kubelik, for example, who is as always so adorably competent and fine in every respect but as it were totally without substance that's not about mere reproduction (sort of like a basically well-meaning slightly right-off-center, culturally well groomed yet conservative political party would).

What I also couldn't stand in the Levine recording was what I recall were really annoying balances, like Jessye Norman who didn't blend in at all but seemed like a tagged-on imposition (and I adore this singer's voice and what she could do with it). Also Siegfried Jerusalem didn't seem like having a good day at all, compared to some other occasions etched in memory. So, again, what you say is interesting and makes me want to hear this disc again (or go have my hearing/memory checked).

PT
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 10:20:59 PM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2008, 03:26:21 AM »
I'll certainly second anybody's admiration for Klemperer's "DLvdE". And the Ormandy one is certainly underrated, and is known by only a few folks.  But as for Jessye Norman, she sounded far, far better on her earlier "DLvdE" with Colin Davis. Siegfried Jerusalem has never been anything to write home about. I still find the Levine "DLvdE" to be one of the biggest Mahlerian duds ever.

By the way, both Dave H. and I saw Jessye Norman do "DLvdE" with the San Jose Symphony (Ca) several decades ago. I believe that was before she even made her Philips recording of it with Colin Davis (the one I like). She was outstanding, but the tam-tam in the SJSO was awful - pretty much just a glorified, upright tea tray (I believe there's over thirty tam-tam strokes in "Der Abschied" - certainly more than 20). But J.N. was fabulous.

Barry

« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 04:46:47 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1368
  • You're the best Angie
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2008, 03:38:44 PM »
Yes, Klemperor's DLvdE is very fine.

PT, you mentioned the Boulez DLvdE, a recording I regard very highly (I may be among very few who do)...Boulez captures the "chinese vase" quality I look for in DLvdE...cold, polished, and abstract.  Like John, I like my DLvdE objectified, like a Cezanne Bather painting.

The Sieghart is good in this regard as well, and the Kubelik on Audite has this quality yet is much much warmer.



--Todd




Polarius T

  • Guest
Re: N.Y. Times article on fire @ Berlin's Philharmonie
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 10:22:09 AM »
Boulez captures the "chinese vase" quality I look for in DLvdE...cold, polished, and abstract.  Like John, I like my DLvdE objectified, like a Cezanne Bather painting.

That's a nice way of putting it. I guess I do agree with you & John on this point.

PT

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk