Author Topic: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6  (Read 20360 times)

Offline Dave H

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2008, 02:29:54 AM »
Also great:
Mozart late symphonies (originally stupidly coupled to some terrific Webern)
Dvorak Symphonies 6-9
Brahms Symphonies (one of the best modern cycles)
Stravinsky/Bartok Ballets (the Vienna Phil has never sounded better)

Dave H

Offline sbugala

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2008, 03:08:50 AM »
Perhaps he regards these performances as some of his greatest, and most profound. There's no evidence he played Mahler because he "had" to do it, against his will or better judgment.

Dave H
Dave, you are correct. As I read from articles in Grammophone magazine Dohnanyi was very proud of his Mahler recordings. He believed they were 'authentic' performances, whatever that means.

John,

I recall that interview, too.  If I recall, he chastised Bernstein's interpretations as being over the top.  I've repeatedly tried to like Dohnanyi's Mahler, but I just couldn't get into it. 

Dave mentioned the Bruckner. You might want to hold onto the set just for that...or at least rip it before selling it.  While I don't care much for Dohnanyi's Bruckner 4th, 5-9 are very good. I was hoping he'd finish out the cycle with a 1st and 2nd on par with the others in the cycle.  Alas, it never happened. Having said that, who cares? There's still some good early Bruckner recordings to fill in the gap.   


Offline John Kim

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 07:33:22 AM »
I heard there exists a Dohnanyi/CVLO M2nd recording that was included in an integral set of Dohnanyi's live concerts from Cleveland.

Does anyone have this one?

Oh, no, never mind .... Dohnanyi and Resurrection Symphony must be as polar opposites as one can imagine...like water and grease  :-[

John,

Offline akiralx

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 08:43:18 AM »
While I don't care much for Dohnanyi's Bruckner 4th, 5-9 are very good. I was hoping he'd finish out the cycle with a 1st and 2nd on par with the others in the cycle.  Alas, it never happened. Having said that, who cares? There's still some good early Bruckner recordings to fill in the gap.   

Talking of Bruckner 2, I was recently sent an off-air CD of Muti conducting the VPO in B2 in April of this year. 

Very fine performance (a few horn glitches aside) of the standard 1877 Nowak version - Bruckner con amore, as they used to say about Sir John Barbirolli.

Offline Dave H

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 11:32:53 AM »
If it was Barbirolli, then it was more likely "Bruckner on the rocks!"  ;D

Dave H

Offline akiralx

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2008, 04:03:36 PM »
If it was Barbirolli, then it was more likely "Bruckner on the rocks!"  ;D

Dave H

Do you mean a lousy performance or that JB was a boozer?

Offline Dave H

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2008, 04:33:21 PM »
I should have added "with a twist." He was famously fond of the bottle, though it didn't make him any less lovable. There is some evidence, however, that toward the end of his life it may have had an effect on his conducting (e.g. his EMI Sibelius cycle--slow and sloppy). But then, he was always "spontaneous," which is classical-music-speak for being wildly inconsistent (Furtwangler was the king of spontaneity, and no one ever suggested that it was due to alcohol).

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2008, 06:25:36 PM »

Well, I listened to the M6 and like it a lot!  I really got the set for the Bruckner so one good extra recording is a bonus...


Exactly. Aside from the metallic "ping" strokes, his M6 is pretty darn good. The playing of the Clevelanders is just outrageous. Nobody will argue about the worth of his Bruckner - it's better as a whole, than the sum of its individual symphonies.

Offline akiralx

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2008, 08:12:44 AM »
I should have added "with a twist." He was famously fond of the bottle, though it didn't make him any less lovable. There is some evidence, however, that toward the end of his life it may have had an effect on his conducting (e.g. his EMI Sibelius cycle--slow and sloppy). But then, he was always "spontaneous," which is classical-music-speak for being wildly inconsistent (Furtwangler was the king of spontaneity, and no one ever suggested that it was due to alcohol).

Dave H

No, I don't think that's right - I've read a few biographies of him and nowhere do they suggest he was a drinker, though Michael Kennedy alludes to this suggestion, pointing out that his rich mode of speech coupled to ill-fitting dentures made some think he was slurring his words. 

No-one who really knew him is reported to have felt he was a drinker - he would hardly have had the time bearing in mind he worked obsessively for nearly 20 hours a day and ate only one meal a day, at midnight.  However his obsessive smoking undoubtedly accelerated his death. 

His occasional sloppy performance in later years were more likely to have been caused by his weak heart (he needed oxygen before a South American concert at high altitude), but as Kennedy says the surprise was not that there were a few sub-par performances but that there were so many good ones.

Offline Dave H

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2008, 09:13:56 AM »
Well, the info I got was from musicians who knew him, and loved him, and had no axe to grind. So I accept it at face value. People think that little tidbits like that are meant to demean, when in reality they are just facts of life. Some artists do their best work when they're "sauced," and if that's what it takes for them to get the job done, then I say "Bottoms up!" In any case, and for whatever reason, I don't accept apologists like Kennedy being "surprised" that there were so many good performances. It's insulting to any artist of stature, and so typical of a certain pathetic attitude prevalent in the arts ("We're so wonderful that you should love us even for our faults,"--or some version of the Romantic notion of an artist literally giving their life for their art, damn the audible consequences). There is nothing noble in mediocrity. Barbirolli was a professional, and his best performances show he had high standards, and so certainly knew, or had he ability to know, when he was doing his best and when he wasn't. I think that giving him credit for this basic perception is far more respectful of his achievement than making excuses for his failings. Admittedly, the material offered recently from the likes of sub-fusc labels such as BBC Classics is unauthorized (by him) and likely would never have been permitted to be released had he still been with us, but at the end of the day there is no justification, ever, for doing poor work. From a personal point of view, illness or badly fitting teeth may be regrettable, but a bad performance from a technical point of view is inexcusable.

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Dohnanyi M1, 4, 5 & 6
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2008, 03:07:49 AM »
I just want to add something about Dohnanyi's Mahler 4. It's not terrible, except for two pretty serious flaws. One, as David pointed out, the cymbal player places a good number of his numerous cymbal crashes in the wrong place. This is at the climactic passage of the recapitulation section of the first movement (there's a series of at least a dozen cymbal crashes there).

Second, Dawn Upshaw waaaay over "cutsie-fies" her part in the fourth movement. In other words, over emphasizing the folksy element of the text, and disregard Mahler's explicit request to sing in a non-parodistic way (without parody).

Barry


 

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