Schwarz/RLPO/Artek M6th - the first impression

[Leo K]

Uhmmm... I thought III. and IV. were more interesting

John,

    I haven't heard scherzo and finale on my better equipment yet...that could be why!

But so far, yeah...I really like Schwarz's way in the first two movements...the andante is perhaps the highlight of the whole performance.

I do like the finale's sense of unfolding defeat...the tempos and dynamics really reveal the dramatic arc of the finale very well...the last hammerblow really feels like defeat, and is very powerful.

Although I prefer slower scherzos in general, I like the Schwarz M6 scherzo well enough...the nuance and detail is very good, and in the context of the whole performance this scherzo works just fine...it is very active and contibutes to the "story" (emotional defeat) of the finale...makes the defeat more effective.


--Todd

[John Kim]

Todd,

In the Seattle concert I attended in early 2000's, Schwarz had the low brass such as tuba really roar out in the Scherzo and that had me sit on the edge of my seat. Unfortunately, I don't hear such a treatment in the recording, but everything else is pretty much the way I heard in the concert. Nobody can beat the Rattle or even Bernstein (NYPO on Sony) in this movt. but Schwarz comes very close.

John,

[Russ Smiley]

Today on a long car drive I listened to several movements of both the Schwarz and Zinman M6s.  (The Zinman is the 'regular' CD that came with the DVD).  I like both performances.  Overall, the sound of the Zinman recording is the more satisfying of the two with its wide sound stage and hall ambiance.  I also prefer several of the individual movements (primarily the first and the Andante).

Schwarz, often fast, has the gross structure that suits my 'program' for the symphony.  Though the first movement timing is very similar to Gergiev's, under 22 minutes, it didn't annoyingly rush by.  The cowbells are nearly ideal to my thinking: full of mid and low tones, randomly shaken but dense, and not too present.  The Andante is akin to Jansons, a tad long abut certainly not as lugubrious as Eschenbach and Bernstein.  I really like his Scherzo; not as fast as Mackerras but faster than Zinman and always engaging.  The last movement is among the fastest in my experience, and on the count should fail to persuade, but it works for me, start to finish.  The 3rd hammer is a plus in my scoring (no pun intended).  The horns are magnificent throughout the symphony (as a horn player, I'm severely biased on this point).

Besides the sound, where the recording also disappoints was not initially evident.  After a few hearings I realized the low brass are often very reticent.  For example, in the first movement I like the trombone's descending eighths in the 12th measure to be like a snide laugh, repeated by the trumpets after Rehearsal 2, and then by much of the orchestra after Rehearsal 3, but I can barely hear the 'bones in this recording.  Elsewhere, the tuba is not nearly the snarling menace of other recordings.  I suspect all this is a matter of miking: when sampled back-to-back with the Zinman, it was quite apparent.

Overall, like the Zinman/ZTO, the Schwarz/RLPO is a keeper performance in my library.

[Leo K]

Thanks for your review Russ!


--Todd

[John Kim]

Thanks, Russell, for your positive report of the Schwarz M6th.

Like yourself I wish the sound were better. But given the fact that the current economy is bad and classical music market is declining (as far as I can see from all the evidence around), we should be thankful this recording is available.

Regards,

John,

[Leo K]

On a whim I played the MTT SFSO M6 again tonight...I played it right after listening to the Gergiev M6 and I was amazed at how the MTT soared in comparison.  Every revist to the MTT M6 just gets better and better...the staying power of this recording is impressive. It sure doesn't reveal its secrets right away, but after a period of time the special qualities begin to be heard...the tone of a horn here, the turn of a phrase there...and like a field of flowers in bloom, the overall arch of a complete picture comes into focus. Tonight, I felt like I was hearing the M6 in a new way...I new quality about this work I haven't percieved before.  This new quality was very much connected to the actual sound of the SFSO, and seemed to arise from the andante, and a sense of the past and present spread like a wave through each movement in linear time, yet my mind continued to hold the sound of the SFSO, enclosed in a dream-like space, with every movement still playing all at once. Paradoxically, it seemed this work was the symphony where Mahler was at his most objective, his most scientific experiment in the context of arranged sounds.  To my ears, the MTT M6 appeared to out perform all the recent M6's I've been hearing (with exception to the Zinman, which still compares well)!  I was really surprised at my positive reaction here!

--Todd   

[Russell]

On a whim I played the MTT SFSO M6 again tonight...I played it right after listening to the Gergiev M6 and I was amazed at how the MTT soared in comparison.  Every revist to the MTT M6 just gets better and better...the staying power of this recording is impressive. It sure doesn't reveal its secrets right away, but after a period of time the special qualities begin to be heard...the tone of a horn here, the turn of a phrase there...and like a field of flowers in bloom, the overall arch of a complete picture comes into focus. Tonight, I felt like I was hearing the M6 in a new way...I new quality about this work I haven't percieved before.  This new quality was very much connected to the actual sound of the SFSO, and seemed to arise from the andante, and a sense of the past and present spread like a wave through each movement in linear time, yet my mind continued to hold the sound of the SFSO, enclosed in a dream-like space, with every movement still playing all at once. Paradoxically, it seemed this work was the symphony where Mahler was at his most objective, his most scientific experiment in the context of arranged sounds.  To my ears, the MTT M6 appeared to out perform all the recent M6's I've been hearing (with exception to the Zinman, which still compares well)!  I was really surprised at my positive reaction here!

--Todd   

I've always liked this performance, especially the elegiac Andante (sorry, Barry!).  As everyone knows, the performance was recorded in the wake of 9/11, and though the performance can certainly stand on its own merits, it becomes even more poignant and impactful with that fact in mind.

Russell

[barry guerrero]

You don't have to apologize to me. But you should apologize to G.M. He clearly wrote "andante moderato", and the word langsam isn't written even once anywhere in the movement.  I saw Zinman do M6 in S.F. years ago, and I thought it was vastly better than MTT's. To each their own.

[barry guerrero]

.    .  and besides - sorry, but this topic gets me going a bit! - MTT/SFSO do that horrible thing of disregarding the "muted" marking on the next to the last snare drum roll in the symphony (the last one being the movement's final A-minor chord). It's located right where the third hammer stroke was originally located (and reinstated by those who believe in 3 strokes for supposed biographical reasons). MTT/SFSO play that roll fortissimo, with the snares left on. It sounds both stupid and wrong to me. The entire movement is dissolving at that point. Compare the identical passage to that on the Zinman M6, or any other one where the "muted" marking is observed. It makes so much more sense when done correctly.

And while you're at it, compare the scherzos back to back. Sure, Zinman is less "contrasty" in terms of tempo relationships. But he's far better in making Mahler's deliberate sound effects sound scary and expressionistic. Even better, listen to how Zinman creates a climax by doing a ritard. BEFORE the movement's final tam-tam smash. It's a passage where the horns are playing ascending sequences of descending chromatic notes (half-steps), just before the woodwinds do their last two sets of trills. It makes that passage sound hollow and desolate, which is truly the point. It's as though some scary looking clown is suddenly in your face. It also takes the emphasis off of the tam-tam smash itself, which really isn't the climax of the movement. Just like the last tam-tam smash in the finale, the last T-T. smash in the scherzo marks where the movement begins tumbling and  dissolving. Actually, that's one reason why I do prefer the scherzo be played second: the end of the scherzo and the end of the finale behave in almost identical manners.

On top of all that, I just don't like how MTT pulls the "Alma" theme all over the place. To me, it's way over-romanticed, and very fussy sounding. Sorry, but I just can't see how you folks can like that so much. At this point, the only recording of Mahler 6 that I like where the conductor has turned the "andante moderato" movement into a full blown Adagio, is the Eschenbach/Philly one. It's just as well played as the MTT one, and even better recorded. And as weird as Eshenbach's conducting can sometimes be, I think he's more imaginative - and thus, more interesting - than MTT.  Tilson Thomas' M6 just strikes me as over-romantized Mahler with tons of loud playing surrounding those romanticized moments. I don't think he pays attention to details enough, such as blowing his way through the muted snare drum roll (which I think just sounds stupid there). I also think his scherzo is sufficiently loud but boring. Well played Mahler?      .    .    .   there's tons of it now.

Barry

[Leo K]

Revisting the Schwarz M6 after a lot of time has passed, and wow...it surely gains in stature for me, and now I hear what John was hearing in the last two movements...yes I now agree these are very powerful indeed.


Time to raise a glass of Jameson for this one...cheers!

--Todd

[John Kim]

Yes, I LIKE the Schwarz M6th very much. It's somewhat light in the textures but that doesn't mean it is "Mahler-light". The Scherzo is hands down one of the very best (along with Rattle and Zinman) and I like the tight, intense Finale that reveals lots of details I've never heard before.

John,