Help w M6 Finale

[gabyb]

Just for reference's sake, the only one on your list I've listened to is the Bernstein I, which I have a hard time with, actually.  The finale somehow doesn't flow at all on that performance, and the first mov is impossibly fast I find.  I've been listening to Zinman and Fischer, primarily, as well as Chailly and Levine to a lesser extent.  My preliminary sense of the finale, which is becoming more managable after repeated listening, is that it's like the 'can't get started' engine, it's built so as not to build momentum, i.e. the diametrical opposite of the first movement.  I suppose that's part of why I was having difficulty w it, as well as the fact that it's especially pessimistic music, something I haven't encountered in Mahler yet (or since).  It's certainly unexpected if you know the first movements only, and I'm still unclear as to how they work together, though the common material and references are obvious now.  More later.

GB

[John Kim]

Here is my humble opinion about the M6 Finale.

I find that many masterpieces in general - music, film, or literature - have in one way or another a strong 'single mindedness' with a persistent nature. At first, you feel the piece is perversely stubborn, unwieldy, and trying to make too big an argument in a very unorganized, chaotic fashion. These were the impressions that I got and assaulted my senses when I heard Mahler Sixth Finale for the first time. In fact, I went as far as declaring it is the worst music Mahler ever wrote and a total failure at that. But over the next few weeks, upon repeated hearings I gradually came to recognize all the hidden logic, the beauty of the structure and the catalysistic climaxes, all carefully and masterfully constructed by a genius. It all made a perfect sense. In this sense, for me Mahler Sixth is a hard earned taste.

So, take my advice:

Keep listening! .

John,

[john haueisen]

Wow, John!
Are we twin brothers?  You just articulated my early experiences with M6. 
It does grow on you, until you listen just waiting for the complex big picture to materialize.
Has anyone else at the board begun with a distaste for M6, but them come to look forward to its relentless march forward to the end?
--John H

[barry guerrero]

I liked it the very first time I heard it, which was four decades ago. Then again, I play low brass and percussion. However, it did take numerous hearings of the finale to actually memorize what's happening next. I doubt few people could pick it all up the first time around (maybe Hurwitz - best musical memory of anyone I've ever met).

Barry

[Zoltan]

Has anyone else at the board begun with a distaste for M6, but them come to look forward to its relentless march forward to the end?

Yep, same here.

I caught fire on the Andante the first time around and sticked with listening to it and the first movement for several years. The finale was just too big and seemed to go on forever (though, the hammer blows were great moments!). Only last year did I say to myself (on the occasion of getting Jansons' M6), that it's time to crack the hard nut. Been listening to it ever since (with Zinman's M6 added) with growing enthusiasm (and now I can't get the tuba solo out of my head -- with the harp and double bass pizz)!

[john haueisen]

 The finale was just too big and seemed to go on forever (though, the hammer blows were great moments!).
Yes, Zoltan, many have said the finale could almost stand on its own as a sort of symphony.  It is so large that it can be intimidating for many.  I'm so glad the Janssons brought you to look closer at M6.

--John H

[brunumb]

A question for someone with more knowledge of music than myself.
What impact do the hammerblows actually have on the music that immediately follows.  If they are symbolic of blows delivered by fate or whatever, the third (removed) one supposedly felling our hero, surely there should be some sort of immediate reaction in the music.  If I was struck by a blow I would be momentarily stunned and struggle to proceed for a little while.  But it seems like the music just swirls on after the hammerblows, not even a stagger, as if nothing has happened.  Or is there something else in the music that is a response to the blows ?  In some recordings the hammerblows are not very pronounced and it almost doesn't seem to matter in my opinion.  I just feel that the flow of the music should have been more obviously affected.  Am I missing something ?
(The loud drum beats in the 10th are also a problem for me, but that is another story)

[stillivor]

I have asked on the admin bit how to transfer quotations from one thread to another.

On another I've said what I make of the finale.

What I hear at each of the first two blows is like a shock to the system of the hero. The confident-sounding music leading to the blows is replaced by sounds of agony on top of swirls of sound beneath, almost like panic.In other words, underneath, speediness continues, while on top the flow has been slowed.

The last blow leads to the deathly coda.