Remastered Horenstein/LSO M3rd and a live Haitink/RCO M7th (1983)

[waderice]

Mr. Auger's tape has been used for the following:

1) The initial Unicorn LP release
2) The Nonesuch LP release
3) The Advent CrO2 (chromium dioxide) Dolby B cassette release—remember those?
4) The Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open-reel tape release
5) The Unicorn CD release
6) The Brilliant Classics CD release

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I also have the Advent CrO2 chromium dioxide Dolby B cassette release, and can state that it is brighter-sounding than the Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open reel tape, though the thin CrO2 tape cannot accommodate the higher sound pressure levels in the upper frequencies as well as the open reel.  The open reel also has a bit more spacious sound than the CrO2 cassette.

[James Meckley]

Wade,

I'm not surprised that the Advent cassette sounds different in its treble range from the Barclay-Crocker. Given the critical level matching required for proper Dolby-B playback, system output for those tapes was always hit-or-miss—sometimes brighter and sometimes duller than it should have been, depending on whether the particular playback deck in use had its "Dolby Level" set too high or too low, to say nothing of the proper azimuth alignment on those tiny heads.

Do you have any of the other Advent releases? There was a Horenstein M1, and I remember Horenstein's Nielsen 5 with particular fondness, especially the first movement, despite the one-measure-early side drum entrance by Alfred Dukes—otherwise the best realization of that drum solo I've ever heard, live or on record.

James

[waderice]

I'm not surprised that the Advent cassette sounds different in its treble range from the Barclay-Crocker. Given the critical level matching required for proper Dolby-B playback, system output for those tapes was always hit-or-miss—sometimes brighter and sometimes duller than it should have been, depending on whether the particular playback deck in use had its "Dolby Level" set too high or too low, to say nothing of proper azimuth alignment on those tiny heads.

Do you have any of the other Advent releases? There was a Horenstein M1, and I remember Horenstein's Nielsen 5 with particular fondness, especially the first movement, despite the one-measure-early side drum entrance by Alfred Dukes—otherwise the best realization of that drum solo I've ever heard, live or on record.

I don't have any of the other Advent releases.  I should have bought the Horenstein M1 Advent cassette, though I do have it on Barclay-Crocker reel.  I still have the original Advent 201 cassette deck that I bought back in '74 that the M3 was played on.  It doesn't record as well, probably due to head misalignment, but it still plays the M3 quite well.

[James Meckley]

I don't have any of the other Advent releases.  I should have bought the Horenstein M1 Advent cassette, though I do have it on Barclay-Crocker reel.  I still have the original Advent 201 cassette deck that I bought back in '74 that the M3 was played on.  It doesn't record as well, probably due to head misalignment, but it still plays the M3 quite well.

It's funny how the mind works. Your mentioning the Advent 201 brought back memories of that era and of my own copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 (which I haven't played in many years). Mine had fine sound, but had a curious temporal defect which I wonder if yours shares. It would play straight through the first movement as expected but then, instead of starting the second movement, it would go back to a quiet spot about 5 or 6 minutes from the end of the first movement and play that much of it all over again! (I'm not talking about auto-rewind; that extra material was actually recorded on the tape, and if it was on mine it must have been on at least some others as well.)

James

[waderice]

It's funny how the mind works. Your mentioning the Advent 201 brought back memories of that era and of my own copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 (which I haven't played in many years). Mine had fine sound, but had a curious temporal defect which I wonder if yours shares. It would play straight through the first movement as expected but then, instead of starting the second movement, it would go back to a quiet spot about 5 or 6 minutes from the end of the first movement and play that much of it all over again! (I'm not talking about auto-rewind; that extra material was actually recorded on the tape, and if it was on mine it must have been on at least some others as well.)

James,

It's surprising and curious that your copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 had that problem.  Fortunately, mine didn't.  BTW, I think I'm going to hold onto my copy of this particular tape, as I'll bet it's pretty valuable, as well as the Barclay-Crocker reel.  The BC reel goes for quite a princely sum in mail order and ebay auctions, I've noticed. 

Wade

[barry guerrero]

Believe it or not, that's exactly what we did when we played Mahler 3 with the Redwood Symphony about 12 years ago. The conductor wanted to put in a full-blown intermission - a good idea when dealing with a community orchestra audience. So, instead of beginning the second half with the start of the second movement, he played the coda section of the first movement over again. It actually worked quite well, and gave the percussion section a chance to "strut their stuff" a second time (we had my excellent Wuhan 100cm tam-tam).

Barry Guerrero

[waderice]

Believe it or not, that's exactly what we did when we played Mahler 3 with the Redwood Symphony about 12 years ago. The conductor wanted to put in a full-blown intermission - a good idea when dealing with a community orchestra audience. So, instead of beginning the second half with the start of the second movement, he played the coda section of the first movement over again. It actually worked quite well, and gave the percussion section a chance to "strut their stuff" a second time (we had my excellent Wuhan 100cm tam-tam).

Barry Guerrero

I see and understand your justification for the insertion of the intermission, but what was the conductor's reasoning?  The same as your's?

Wade

[Berni]

    The Unicorn CDs were made at the Philips factory in Blackburn, England. There was a period when the material used for the production of CDs was faulty and it caused a degradation over a period of several years. I believe the official term was known as bronzing. The CD took on a bronze rather than a silver appearance. If the CD appeared bronze it did not automatically mean that a fault had developed. If it still appeared to be silver it was possible that degradation had started. I know that the Horenstein M3 CD was one of those affected. My copy seems to be OK but a couple of Hyperion CDs I had show the fault and these have been replaced. Philips were very helpful at the time and published a list of possible suspects.  How many were in the suspect production run I know not. It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard

[barry guerrero]

It's a long piece for the players as well. Personally, I think it's a good idea to insert an intermission in a live performance of M3. I believe that Eric - the conductor - felt that reprising the coda of the first movement helped the continuity of the work. Anyway, nobody seemed to mind. You can get away with this kind of things when you're not in a highly paid, high pressure, professional situation.

[John Kim]

It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard

No. The Unicorn CDs sounded like that when it was first released. I know the difference you're mentioning; I owned Horenstein's M3rd both Unicorn LPs and CDs and the latter was not nearly as good sounding as the former. They had less depth and less details than the LPs were capable of reproducing. That is, it sounded as if all the high & low frequency contents had been filtered out.

John,

[Dyolf]

It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard

No. The Unicorn CDs sounded like that when it was first released. I know the difference you're mentioning; I owned Horenstein's M3rd both Unicorn LPs and CDs and the latter was not nearly as good sounding as the former. They had less depth and less details than the LPs were capable of reproducing. That is, it sounded as if all the high & low frequency contents had been filtered out.

John,

Exactly John, that is how I perceive the Unicorn. Admittedly my copy is a burnt one, as I tried to "better" the playback. (it actually works). Thank you James, for getting the details directly from the source. Its good to know, that at least in theory, the different issues should sound alike.
Steen

[James Meckley]

One of the recordings that inspired this thread, the Horenstein/LSO Mahler 3 as remastered by High Definition Tape Transfers, has apparently been withdrawn from sale. A note has been added to the review of this recording on the Music Web International site:

"PLEASE NOTE we have received a communication from Unicorn-Kanchana alleging that this disc is being copied without their permission. This is a serious matter and AS A RESULT THIS DISC HAS BEEN WITHDRAWN"

Oops!

James

EDIT: Not surprisingly, the same note has been added to their review of Horenstein's LSO Mahler 1 from HDTT.

[waderice]

This is a shame, particularly for those who have never heard the Barclay-Crocker reel tapes of these performances, which sound fabulous in that medium.

Unfortunately, the producers desiring to issue these recordings via high-resolution CD apparently failed to get their licensing ducks in a row before going as far as they did, particularly in publicizing the issuance of the CDs in that format.  A lot of people, I know, are very disappointed, and I feel for them.

Wade

[stillivor]

 I didn't know Unicorrn-Kanchana was still a functioning label.


   Ivor

[James Meckley]

I didn't know Unicorn-Kanchana was still a functioning label.

I don't believe they're still releasing titles, though some individual or corporate entity obviously retains copyright to their back catalogue and is occasionally licensing items to labels like Regis, Brilliant Classics, etc. It was pretty stupid (I was going to write naïve, but thought better of it) of HDTT to release these two titles without proper licensing and permissions if that's indeed what happened.

James