Dynamics without limitations

[Dyolf]

Hi all
In Mahler we have all those moments of full blown orchestral sound, #2, #8 and #9 just to mention a few, and I would like to have recomandations of recordings that are out of the ordinary. CD as a medium, of course have a limitation in dynamic range, but I honestly believe that record companies are not using the medium to a full. It can not be correct that a single mandolin is almost as audible as a full blown M8 finale. Ok maybe not that bad, but you get my point. And yes, my HI-Fi is top notch.
Steen

[Leo K]

This new M9 on Exton is among the jewels of my Mahler collection (almost 100 M9 recordings alone) and the sound quality is unlike I've ever heard for a CD or SACD...very natural and powerful in capturing the orchestra with no ditigal glare (as can be heard in the Gilbert M9)...ask John Kim and he likes the sonics too...

Even if one is not a fan of slower M9's...the sound of the orchestra here is absolutely incredible, even on the redbook layer.

--Todd

[John Kim]

Hi all
In Mahler we have all those moments of full blown orchestral sound, #2, #8 and #9 just to mention a few, and I would like to have recomandations of recordings that are out of the ordinary. CD as a medium, of course have a limitation in dynamic range, but I honestly believe that record companies are not using the medium to a full. It can not be correct that a single mandolin is almost as audible as a full blown M8 finale. Ok maybe not that bad, but you get my point. And yes, my HI-Fi is top notch.
Steen

Very much so, I agree.

When I hear a mandolin or flute solo amidst the full orchestra and it sounds as loud as the orchestra itself I know something is artificial and unnatural. But then that's what we hear in most of recordings being made nowadays. On rare occasions, some smart audio engineers come along with true concert-hall perspectives. In the case of Mahler recordings, I am hardly impressed with domestic and European productions; I'd rather look for Japanese releases such as Exton or Fontec CDs. The Oue/NDR/Exton M9th is an excellent example. Apart from occasional hiccups in the playing, the sound and sonic qualities on this recording are simply astonishing. As Todd pointed out, there is absolutely no trace of digital glare, no sign of distortion or whatsoever that typically undermines most of digital recordings.

I'd also recommend some of recordings made by Channel Classics, e.g., Fischer/BFO M2nd and M4th. The dynamic range in these releases is not as wide and extreme as you might wish, but there is plenty of warmth and ambiance, something that is so rare in digital recordings. Perhaps a partial credit should be given to the orchestra itself - Budapest Festival Orch. - as they have unusually smooth and finely cultivated strings and woodwinds.

Bottom line is that you have to keep searching ideal sound by trial and error. It's a time consuming process but pays off nicely when you find great sounding recordings.

John,

[waderice]

I have learned over the years in general, that as I came to categorize a given work in classical music as a "favorite" through repeated listenings of the same and differing recordings, I have come to accept that there are recordings that: 1) sound great, but are inferior in performance; 2) sound inferior, but are great performances; 3)  sound great and are great in performance; and 4) sound inferior, and are inferior in performance.

Many veterans of classical music who have listened for years of performances of say, M2, may state in general, that as the years have passed, recorded performances of M2 have gravitated from no. 2 to no. 1.  Yes, we no longer have Bernstein, Walter, Klemperer, to name three, who most feel excelled in performances of M2, but whose recordings do not match anything in sound quality of what we have today.  Some concert-going people even say that today, with the playing and performing abilities of orchestral players approaching parity in many venues, plus the fact that many conductors' academic preparation for their profession is very similar and that they travel consistently world-wide, a performance of M2 by a smaller city's orchestra and chorus might be as good, or even better, on a given night, than by one of the major orchestras in one of the world's great cities.

So what is it I'm trying tell you?  It is that if you are patient enough, you can, over years of consistent, thoughtful, and open-minded listening to enough recordings of a work such as M2, you can learn this work fully enough to the point that you will be able to tell what recordings of it are good or poor in performance, and good or poor in sound.

Bottom line, do not let sound quality be your sole criterium for what you obtain in Mahler recordings.  Give consideration to what are considered GREAT performances, even if the sound is dated.  If you have access to a library that has recordings you can borrow for free, take advantage of it.  If you have classical music friends who share your enthusiasm of Mahler and are willing to loan you their Mahler recordings, take advantage of that as well.  There are Internet downloads; many are free or charge a small fee.  Through your various networking contacts, you will, through years of listening experience, be able to tell for yourself what Mahler recordings not only sound good, but are great performances.

[John Kim]

waderice,

Of course I agree with you.

The performance must always come first before the sound quality.

Thus, I treasure Giulini/CSO/EMI M1st, Klemperer/PO/EMI M2, Lenny/NYPO/Sony M3rd, Kletzki/PO/EMI M4th, Previn/PSO/EMI M4th, Lenny/NYPO/Sony M6th and M7th, Horenstein/LSO/BBC M8th, Ludwig/LSO/Everest M9th, Ormandy/PO/Sony DLVDE, etc. (the list goes on).

However, it's also true that great sound HELPS great music, especially the Mahler symphonies. Since we're living in the digital age we naturally expect great sound in every recording we come across. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. In my definition, good sound doesn't necessarily mean sonics with ear-piercing impact and widest dynamic range. In mathematical terms, these are necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions, to make the great sound. 

John,

[waderice]

It's also true that great sound HELPS great music, especially the Mahler symphonies. Since we're living in the digital age we naturally expect great sound in every recording we come across. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. In my definition, good sound doesn't necessarily mean sonics with ear-piercing impact and widest dynamic range. In mathematical terms, these are necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions, to make the great sound.

John,

My post was directed primarily toward Dyolf (or Steen), not you.  It took me a while to put my thoughts into words, and should have quoted him, for clarification's sake.  Additionally, your post and another came on line before I could complete mine.  Sorry if you took any offense.

Wade

[John Kim]

Wade,

It's not like that. No problem at all .

John,

[Dyolf]

Hi
I agree with everything that has been said so far, but the reason for asking for recomandations regarding sound especially, is down to economics. I have listened to classical music the major part of my life (I'm 47), and my vinyl, CD and FLAC collection is already way too comprehensive. I have at least 100 Mahler recordings alone, so when I have already obtained my favourites when it comes to interpretation, I am somewhat reluctant to buy yet another "good" M3.
My "first picks" is only as good as they are soundwise, and nothing can be done about it, but I will be willing to get another recommended CD if I can get that live feeling in my chair. That means that in order to hear the very soft passages, I will set the volume accordingly, but then I will not have to be cheated of a finale that should be felt in the groin. Off course it would be nice with the bonus of a great performance in addition to a great recording
Steen

[barry guerrero]

I also don't think that this topic has to fall into an "either/or" situation. There are plenty of great performances that also have really good sound. One is not exclusive of the other.

I would put the Fischer M2 and M4 into this category (Channel Classics), along with the Eschenbach/Philly M6 on Ondine (I like the Zinman M6  better as performance, but the sound is excellent on the Eschenbach - not to mention the superlative playing of Philly). And while the dynamic range may not be "huge" on the Schwarz/Seattle M8, I do think that the sound quality is incredibly "natural" and convincing as a live performance.

[Romy The Cat]

Hi all
In Mahler we have all those moments of full blown orchestral sound, #2, #8 and #9 just to mention a few, and I would like to have recomandations of recordings that are out of the ordinary. CD as a medium, of course have a limitation in dynamic range, but I honestly believe that record companies are not using the medium to a full. It can not be correct that a single mandolin is almost as audible as a full blown M8 finale. Ok maybe not that bad, but you get my point. And yes, my HI-Fi is top notch.
Steen

Steen,

You will not find any interesting “dynamics without limitations” on CD format. If you can play 88K/24 then try M6 by Levine and BSO. It is a good reading of M6 and it has very high dynamics range, I hope you playback will be able to handle it.

Romy the Cat