Author Topic: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?  (Read 31870 times)

Offline Michael

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2010, 07:53:48 AM »
Okay, here goes.  Note that the easiest way for me to refference the passages I am talking about is to give timings in the recording; all timings are approximate.  And in short, yes, I would hazard a guess and say that the sonics are better than the original, just based on what I heard from the remastered version.

   The first movement opens beautifully with a nice, wide soundstage demonstrated by the low strings on the right and the harp on the left.  The opening appearance of the “Farewell” theme starts off in the first measure rather quickly before Bernstein reins the orchestra back.  We see this approach again in the Rondo-Burleske, but more on that later.  At the first climax (Roughly 6:45) the timpanist is not as bold as in Bernstein’s New York account, but that is okay.  One point of interest: at 7:38, the timpani is a bit out of tune; it appears as though they may have tuned the timp a bit sharp before the concert.
   The haunting slide in the strings at 8:44 is something new I have never noticed in the score before, so kudos to Bernstein for accentuating that detail, as I think it helps to convey the mood nicely.  (The same thing occurs at 15:19, with the same good results.) While we’re talking of unnoticed details in this work for me, the timpani crashes at 12:12 (going from D down to A) are also details I noticed when listening to this recording.  While that particular detail does not add much to the piece for me, I again applaud Lenny for bringing those details to light.
   The violin solo at 16:05 is passionately played with a lot of vibrato, and that leads in nicely to the big climax.  By the way, the percussion at 18:16 (and just before that) sounds great; there is not much bass distortion, which I was expecting given the source of this recording.
   After the big climax things really start to wind down.  Another detail that Bernstein accentuates is the passage around 19:40: I have never heard bells playing the same three-note pattern in the middle octave; as with the other details Lenny brings out, I like it.
   At 24:01 the music reminds me a lot of the closing passage of Mussorgsky’s Night on Bald Mountain, complete with the harp doing a D major arpeggio.  This passage, as with the ending of Night on Bald Mountain, suggests some final and long called-for calm.  And before I forget, the flute solo at 25:35 is heartbreakingly beautiful.
The Landler under Bernstein is rather faster than Simon Rattle or Bruno Walter (1961 version), but that is okay with me.  Interestingly, like Walter, Bernstein stamps his foot on the podium at the exact same point (0:15) as Walter does in both of his recordings, and that for me shows a Maestro who is very engaged with the music.  Come on, it’s Lenny, and this recording wasn’t meant for release.
   Mahler critic Tony Duggan noted in his review of this recording (in its older form) that the waltz material (2:24 in) is slower than the Landler; whether it should be the opposite way around (as Duggan suggests) or not is really not for me to say.  What I can say though is that for me, the Landler has enough “crunch” (this isn’t Rattle, but it’s close enough for folk music) and the Waltz sounds sufficiently, well, like a waltz.  (Interestingly, when the Landler theme reappears just before 13:00, Bernstein takes it significantly slower.)  At 14:46, there is a great balance of strings and winds, something I do not recall hearing in other recordings.
   I mentioned how Bernstein employed a little rubato in the Rondo; while it was somewhat noticeable in the first movement, it is very noticeable in the Rondo.  (The pause I am talking about is at 0:04.)  Lenny’s Berlin account is very fast, and honestly I must say I really like it.  Here, just as in the first movement, there are details I did not notice before, one of which is an increased clarinet presence at 2:16.  At 3:00 it seems as though the brass may have not been playing quite together, but it was only momentary and who knows, at that speed, perhaps it was intentional.
   At 5:45 Bernstein slows things down significantly, which I feel draws out the comforting nature of the middle passage.  I know some do not approve of this approach, but, in my opinion, it works.  The viola solo at 9:04 is beautiful and passionate, kind of a last glimmer of hope for the movement.  Bernstein gets the orchestra going at 9:44 and it just builds from there on out to an impressive ending—extremely fast and extremely well played.
   I think Tony Duggan’s assessment of the great Adagio fourth movement under Bernstein with the BPO as “Mahler with all the stops pulled out” is very justified.  The opening theme (starting at 0:22) is one of the slowest I have heard.  But oh, how passionate, how heartfelt.
   At 3:45 I was surprised not to hear as much of a low string presence as I had heard in other recordings; but, again, this is a live recording.  The viola solo at 5:03 is strong and passionate, as is the violin solo at 6:06.  About 6:00 and lasting about a minute, Bernstein speeds up the tempo a bit; this, to me, suggests some desperation—very appropriate.  The first climax at 9:39 is very heavy on the percussion, and, as in the first movement, the sound quality is very good, considering that this is a tape from 1979.
   At 10:39 the harmony between the violas and violins is very noticeable, more so than in other recordings I have heard.  I have always found the viola to be a mellow yet commanding instrument, and violas in multiples playing a tender passage such as that serves to make the music that much more heartfelt.
   It still remains a mystery why the entire trombone section of four players did not play at the climax of the entire work at 14:45; I must say, though, that the trumpets carrying the melody alone suggests for me an even greater sense of desperation , almost to the point of emotional breakdown.
   The music takes on a tender quality at 17:43, and thus begins the decent to a gentle rest.  During the viola solo at 20:32, one can actually hear someone in the audience sniffle; no doubt, this performance was evoking extreme emotions from at least some of the crowd.  Bernstein really begins to stretch things at 23:00, and it further serves to accentuate the emotional power of this beautiful work.
   I know there are those who do not approve of this kind of emotional approach to Mahler’s music, and those who feel that way probably will not much care for Bernstein’s performances of this work, especially this one.  Also, the missing trombones at the climax will undoubtedly be a major turnoff for some; I consider it a small price to pay for this landmark recording, but I know not everyone will feel that way.
   As far as the sound goes, I have not heard the original, so I really do not have anything to compare it to.   With that said, the sound quality is not as high as say the 2007 Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic release, but honestly I didn’t expect it to be.  While I have not heard the original recording, I am a pretty harsh critic of sonics…and I consider the sound to be very good, considering that it was taken from a tape intended only for broadcast in 1979.  So, while I cannot answer the question of whether the sonics are improved from the older recording, I can definitely say that the sound quality is very good.
   Overall, I would give this performance a 9/10, and the only thing holding me back from giving it a 10/10 is the missing trombones at the climax of the fourth movement.
Michael

Offline Michael

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 08:08:49 AM »
John, are there any records of that performance, and if so...is any mention given to why the trombones are missing?  Also, is there anything known as to whether this happened both nights?
Michael

Offline John Kim

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2010, 04:36:44 PM »
John, are there any records of that performance, and if so...is any mention given to why the trombones are missing?  Also, is there anything known as to whether this happened both nights?
There are several THEORIES as to what had happened that night. I know of two among them:

1. The Berliners were in a sabotage mood against the conductor and the trombone players took a big part in it by omitting the melody.

2. Something happened to the lead trombonist at that moment. The rest of the group, surprised by this incident and at a loss, just followed him by not playing the part.

By all evidence, the second concert was not broadcasted, nor there exists a recording of it in any form.

That's all I know.

I think DG must someday provide an explanation themselves.

BTW, thanks for your nice report. It sounds pretty much like what I already have in the original 2CDs set.

John,

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2010, 04:48:01 PM »
...is any mention given to why the trombones are missing?  Also, is there anything known as to whether this happened both nights?

Michael,

Because 1) the orchestra had played the work before, 2) it's an easy and obvious entrance, and 3) the entire section (three players) was AWOL, there's been considerable (and, I think, reasonable) speculation that the "mistake" was intentional—that the performance was sabotaged.

I've heard a couple of similar (and confirmed) stories, this time featuring MTT. One involved the Chicago Symphony brass section and was related by a cellist in the orchestra:

"I remember our Australian tour in 1988. Tilson Thomas appeared along with Solti.  Thomas conducted the Rachmaninoff Second Symphony.  He had angered the brass during rehearsal and they sabotaged one of his performances by playing nothing louder than a mezzo-piano (at most). Not a high point in the history of the CSO. Their tactic backfired in that the following day's reviews raved, "We had no idea that the CSO had such a marvelous string section until last evening's performance of the Rachmaninoff!" Finally, we strings could be heard and enjoyed instead of being the victims of the usual brass-led obliteration."

The other story involves a European orchestra and a piece by Richard Strauss. The entire orchestra dropped out for one bar at the climax of the piece, leaving MTT waving his arms to total silence. I couldn't find the details on this one last night, but when I do, I'll post them.

Thanks for your in-depth review of the Bernstein/Berlin M9 above. I have the older two-disc release and will probably just keep it as I find the sound perfectly adequate.

There are two other Bernstein M9s worth considering: 1) the 1971 DG/Unitel video production with Vienna (recorded in Berlin—the sound on the DVD is at least as good as the CD under discussion), and 2) the wonderful live 1979 Boston Symphony Tanglewood recording on Memories (made just three months before his live Berlin Philharmonic recording).

James
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 06:14:55 PM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline John Kim

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2010, 06:03:10 PM »
The live 1979 Tanglewood concert with Lenny/BSO is a GEM. In many ways, for me this is the greatest Lenny-M9th. The sound on the Memories label is very good (stereo) too.

John,

Offline Michael

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2010, 06:56:27 PM »
Where on earth can a copy of that be had?
Michael

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2010, 07:05:55 PM »
The live 1979 Tanglewood concert with Lenny/BSO is a GEM. In many ways, for me this is the greatest Lenny-M9th.

I agree. It has a similar interpretive profile to his Berlin performance—the total timings differ by only a minute or so—but it's not quite so hysterical. And the Boston trombone section doesn't disappoint. Bernstein's singing and stomping are even more in evidence here, but that just adds to the sense of occasion. The perspective of the Tanglewood recording is quite different from the one in Berlin, and that inevitably affects the way one reacts to the performances. The Berlin recording sounds as if you're seated in row E on the main floor while the Tanglewood perspective is from the front of the first balcony in a large hall. Both recordings are more than adequate.

Michael, the Berkshire Record Outlet still has copies for $13.98 (BRO #17814).

James
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 04:53:19 PM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline John Kim

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2010, 08:18:24 PM »
The live 1979 Tanglewood concert with Lenny/BSO is a GEM. In many ways, for me this is the greatest Lenny-M9th.

I agree. It has a similar interpretive profile to his Berlin performance—the total timings differ by only a minute or so—but it's not quite so hysterical. And the trombone section doesn't disappoint. Bernstein's singing and stomping is even more evident here, but that just adds to the sense of occasion. The perspective of the recording is quite different here than in Berlin, and that inevitably affects the way you'll react to the performance. If the Berlin recording sounds as if you're seated in row E on the main floor, the Tanglewood perspective is from the front of the first balcony in a large hall. Both recordings are more than adequate.

Michael, the Berkshire Record Outlet still has copies for $13.98 (BRO #17814).

James
James,

Quite right. I much prefer the sound of BSO over the sound of BPO in this music. Like you pointed out, the Boston players are in a better control (or Lenny is in a better control) than the Berliners. The first movt. is better shaped (possibly the best M9:I Lenny ever delivered) with a great sense of structure and balance, and yet as always with this conductor it's full of power and swagger when they're called for.

One tip:

If you listen carefully, near the end of IV. you can catch giggles and noises coming from children playing in the far out field of Tanglewood. It makes an eerie and very poignant effect at this point of the symphony.

John,
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 11:48:30 PM by John Kim »

Offline John Kim

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 11:39:42 PM »
I've just bought a copy on ebay for $12.00 including S&H 8).

I will report on the sound quality later.

John,
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 11:47:48 PM by John Kim »

Offline Leo K

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2010, 12:59:21 PM »
Hopefully my copy should be here today too!


 :D

--Todd

Offline Michael

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2010, 01:09:54 PM »
I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!  Post away!  LOL

Michael

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2010, 07:33:17 PM »
"It still remains a mystery why the entire trombone section of four players did not play at the climax of the entire work at 14:45"

If you listen with headphones, with the volume set very high, you'll hear that something indeed happened. Somebody near the back of the orchestra must have fallen or slip. You can hear a slight "booming" sound, like somebody falling. Then you can hear just a smidgeon of vocal reaction from audience members right around there. It's for that reason that I don't buy the sabotage story, although it might be true.

I also agree that on the whole, the Tangelwood BSO performance is even better.

The CSO brass section story is very amusing. When they last played Mahler 5 in San Francisco - a perfectly ghastly performance, by the way (sort of lead by Solti) - I also didn't know that a string section HAD come along until we reached the Adagietto (obviously, I'm exaggerating, but it sure felt that way).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 08:38:44 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2010, 03:31:37 AM »
I just recieved my new Bernstein box from Carnigie Hall presents...listening to the M3 now...WOW...can't believe how good this sounds now!!!!

What a set!!!

This M3...forgotten how freakin good it really IS!!!!


--Todd

Offline John Kim

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2010, 05:36:42 AM »
I just recieved my new Bernstein box from Carnigie Hall presents...listening to the M3 now...WOW...can't believe how good this sounds now!!!!

What a set!!!

This M3...forgotten how freakin good it really IS!!!!


--Todd
Lenny's first recording of this symphony has always been my top choice. Nobody else gets the final pages in VI as spiritually elated as Lenny does here; those horns and strings soaring into the high sky and beyond are something to marvel at each time I listen. Nobody does it better. Period.

John,

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Has anyone heard the Lenny/BPO/DG M9 on DG Original series?
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2010, 07:23:02 AM »
Lenny's first recording of this symphony has always been my top choice. Nobody else gets the final pages in VI as spiritually elated as Lenny does here; those horns and strings soaring into the high sky and beyond are something to marvel at each time I listen. Nobody does it better. Period.


Todd and John are absolutely right—the way Bernstein handles the climax of the big brass chorale in the Finale is surely one of the greatest moments in music. And now the recording sounds better than ever!

James
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:18:18 AM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

 

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