Bernstein/LSO M2 – A Question

[James Meckley]

The booklet for the Royal Edition CD release of the Bernstein/LSO Mahler 2 gives the following recording data:

Recording: Ely Cathedral, England, August 31 & September 1 & 2, 1973; George Watson's College, Edinburgh, Scotland, March 8, 1974.

Does anyone know what took place at the secondary location in Scotland? Organ overdub, perhaps?

James

[John Kim]

James,

Believe it or not, I've never heard Lenny's Resurrection with LSO (except for a video excerpt for the final peroration part in V.) . But I heard it was recorded live at a London cathedral that has an organ (correct me if I am wrong about this). So, I guess there was need to separately record the organ at a different location.

John,

[waderice]

I didn't know that an organ overdub was made for the recording.  The Columbia Quadraphonic LP set that I have of Bernstein/LSO M2 is definitely very weak on organ, though of any other issue of that recording, save the Royal Edition, the Quadraphonic LP issue has the best sound of any I've heard.  Also, having been part of a choral concert at Ely Cathedral in Summer, 1976, I definitely recognize the architecture of that venue in the video version of the performance.  And whatever organ sound there is on the video version is weak as well.  I haven't heard the Royal Edition version, so there's no way I can tell if there is evidence of an organ on that recording.  Maybe they decided that an organ overdub was necessary to give sense to the recording, so I would wonder why they didn't go back to Ely Cathedral itself to record the overdub as opposed to going to a different acoustical venue.

[John Kim]

How is Lenny's LSO recording compared to his NYPO recording (Sony)?

I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.

John,

[James Meckley]

I was just speculating about the possibility of an organ overdub, but that's the most likely reason for a secondary venue being listed in a recording of M2. I've since collected the following information:

1) In the Unitel video, at the times when the organ would be playing, there are no visual cutaways to the pipes or to the console (something they did do in their M8 production), but there are frequent cutaways at various other times to random parts of the cathedral and to other architectural details. This makes me think that the Ely organ was not used at all during the initial recording.

2) The Ely Cathedral organ underwent a major rebuild in 1974-75 (immediately after this production and before Wade was there in 1976). The cathedral used an electronic organ to fill in during the period that the real organ was out of service.

SPECULATION: Perhaps the real organ was already out of service in September 1973 in preparation for its overhaul. It would most likely have been out of service in 1974 when/if they decided to add an overdubbed organ, so they would have had to resort to an instrument in another location (an "organ transplant" as we used to call such a maneuver). Or perhaps the Ely organ and/or its console were located in a part of the cathedral remote from where they had to set up the orchestra, making real-time coordination of organ and orchestra impossible.

I hear very modest evidence of an organ in the Unitel video, and I hear somewhat more organ in the Royal Edition CD, for what that's worth.

TO JOHN: I've read both negative and positive comments about this Resurrection; I like it. It's a more mature and focussed interpretation than his original NYPO recording, and not so distended and wayward as his later DG version. The Unitel audio guys tamed the Ely acoustic nicely—it's a spacious yet detailed recording which serves the music well (though the multi-miking is obvious in many spots). And Dame Janet Baker is wonderful.

James

[James Meckley]

I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.

The recording I've most often seen referred to as Bernstein's greatest Resurrection is his Cleveland Orchestra performance from 1970, available briefly on several pirate labels. I had it on cassette at one time, but that's now buried somewhere in the spare bedroom.

James

[Russell]

Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement.  (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4784

Russell

[James Meckley]

Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement.  (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....

Russell,

Thanks for posting this—the plot seems to be thickening. When you say it rings a faint bell, you mean you've heard this claim made elsewhere, that the last movement was recorded in Scotland? Any idea where you heard it?

Some of this reviewer's assertions have me scratching my head. He says in paragraph one, "The Ely Cathedral recording sounded nothing like a cathedral acoustic - it was close miked and rather dry." As someone who's made many recordings in cathedrals, I disagree. It sounds exactly like a recording made in a cathedral, with the microphones pulled in. I hear a T60 reverb time of at least four to five seconds in all the movements, including the last one.

Seeking more information, I timed all the movements on both the Royal Edition CD and the Unitel DVD. They're all within ten seconds of one another except the Urlicht, which is 30 seconds longer on the CD than the DVD, which suggests, at least, that they used a different take.

I did re-audition portions of both recordings side-by-side and must admit that the balances are quite different in the two fifth movements. Interpretively, the CD version's fifth movement also seems somewhat less "intense" than that on the DVD. If they did record the last movement on the CD in a smaller church in Scotland, they could have added artificial reverb until it matched the sound from Ely. They didn't have convolution reverb back then, but the big EMT plates were surprisingly good when used carefully.

BTW, if anyone knows what the reviewer meant by "The reverberant but dry Manhattan Center acoustic..." [italics mine] when referring to the 1963 recording, please advise.

James

[Jules]

The booklet of the Unitel DVD just says “Recording 9/1973”, but it is evident that this version comes from 3 different performances, at least. If you look at the people seating in the first row of chairs, you realize that there are 3 different groups: one of them for movements I, III and IV; another one for mov. II, and another one for mov. V.

[waderice]

I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.

The recording I've most often seen referred to as Bernstein's greatest Resurrection is his Cleveland Orchestra performance from 1970, available briefly on several pirate labels. I had it on cassette at one time, but that's now buried somewhere in the spare bedroom.

James

Concur.  The NYPO recording represents Lenny at his "wildest" (if you want to call it that) in his numerous performances of the work.  The LSO recording, while having its "wild" moments as well, is definitely more restrained and controlled.  The Cleveland recording is a combination of the two approaches, to my ears, and the best.

Wade

[mahlerei]

For the record Ely cathedral is in Cambridgeshire, not in London. And yes, the Unitel video is culled from more than one performance. I can only assume the extra sessions at George Watson's College were patches but will make enquiries and let you all know what I find.

[barry guerrero]

I agree that the LSO/Ely Cathedral performance is quite good, but the "visuals" on the Unitel video are just ridiculous. How many times do we need to keep looking at the dome? I think it has the poorest camera work in the entire Unitel cycle. At this point, I feel that there are far better dvd versions of M2. All in all, I do prefer the earlier New York one, but any captured Mahler performance from Bernstein ranges from very good to outstanding. I've yet to hear the Cleveland one, and I guess should make the effort to do so.

[Russell]

Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement.  (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....

Russell,

Thanks for posting this—the plot seems to be thickening. When you say it rings a faint bell, you mean you've heard this claim made elsewhere, that the last movement was recorded in Scotland? Any idea where you heard it?

No, not really. That person's comments about the final movement being recorded separately seemed ever-so-faintly familiar, but I certainly can't place where I might have read about it. I did a search of the 'Gramophone' magazine archives during that time period (1973-74), but came up with nothing that would shed more light on the issue--no mention at all about any place other than Ely Cathedral as the recoding venue.  It would seem very unusual for all the performers to reassemble several months later in a completely different venue (and much further away from Ely) to record the final movement, but one never knows, I suppose.  Incidentally, the LP was reviewed in Gram's November 1974 issue, which could lend some credence to a second recording session in March of that year.

Russell

[sperlsco]

...
I hear very modest evidence of an organ in the Unitel video, and I hear somewhat more organ in the Royal Edition CD, for what that's worth.

TO JOHN: I've read both negative and positive comments about this Resurrection; I like it. It's a more mature and focused interpretation than his original NYPO recording, and not so distended and wayward as his later DG version. The Unitel audio guys tamed the Ely acoustic nicely—it's a spacious yet detailed recording which serves the music well (though the multi-miking is obvious in many spots). And Dame Janet Baker is wonderful.

James

As I started reading this thread, I thought that surely the extra recording date had something to do with the organ in the finale.  I "remembered" that the CD of the LSO M2 featured an ending that was all organ and brass but very little percussion (tam-tams, bells), which was very different from the DVD which I am certain has very little organ (if any).  I'm slowly learning that I cannot trust my memory anymore.  I listened to the CD of the LSO M2-5 this morning and am surprised that there didn't appear to be very much organ there either!  I was correct about the brass being very good and the percussion being barely audible.   To my ears, Lennie conducts the LSO and NYPO/DG ones similarly, although he is a bit slower in the finale of the DG version.  I really like the DG M2 best of all since it really nails all aspects of the ending.

But as for shedding any light on the different recording dates and venues, well...my listening session did not help. 

[James Meckley]

I just received this input from a participant in another forum:

"The March date was a chorus-only video "miming" session that was used for the Unitel film."

One wonders why Sony would have included information on an image-related "miming session" in the recording data column for an audio-only CD release.

James