Author Topic: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??  (Read 70151 times)

Offline mahler09

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2010, 07:37:10 PM »
Yep!

Offline Michael

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2010, 10:18:12 PM »
What year?

That's awesome to see another Mahler fanatic in high school...

Do you have a favorite M6?
Michael

Offline mahler09

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2010, 11:22:25 PM »
Sophomore.  Oh that's a tough one... probably Chailly and RCO.  But 6 isn't my favorite so I don't have quite as many recordings of it as I should.  I'll have to investigate... any suggestions?

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2010, 12:22:15 AM »
Sophomore.  Oh that's a tough one... probably Chailly and RCO.  But 6 isn't my favorite so I don't have quite as many recordings of it as I should.  I'll have to investigate... any suggestions?
Mackerras/BBC Philharmonic (crops up on ebay occasionally)
Boulez/Vienna Philharmonic
Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic (I can't abide the tempo of the first movement, but it is a vigorous performance)
Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle (for me the slow Scherzo is a negative, but I really like the first movement and overall sound)
Delfs/Milwaukee SO (mp3 download from MSO store)
Russ Smiley

Offline mahler09

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2010, 12:35:46 AM »
Thanks; I'll check those out soon.  (listening to the third movement now)

Offline mahler09

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2010, 01:41:15 AM »
I was able to request the Boulez and the Bernstein from my library; I'll post when they come in and I have the chance to listen.

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2010, 03:55:20 AM »
I won't claim to be a score purist or music theory scholar, but after listening to Abbado, Barbiroli, Cortese, Haenchen, Karajan, Levi, Levine/LSO, Herbig, Haitink/CSO, Fischer, Gergiev, Rattle, Segerstam, Tennstedt, Thomas, Wit, Zander, etc., I've settled on my preferences as listed (with versions by Jansons(LSO), Farberman, and Bertini in the 'honorable mention' category).  My first recording of this symphony was the Abbado/CSO on LP.  Over time I found that a 'bright' performance simply didn't work for me (though their M5 is still fine).  The more recent Abbado/BPO or Abbado/LFO are held up as a models by some, but they, too, simply were not dark and angry enough.  Instead, I think a deep, rich sound really suits the M6, hence the appeal of the Bernstein and Boulez recommendations.  (The MSO recording satisfies in this regard, too.)  The bells need to be really 'organic': if you've listened to a real herd of livestock with bells, you know what to listen for in the pastoral interludes: more clunk than ping and tinkle.  Also, I'm a A/S and 3 hammers heretic/hypocrite: as quickly as I'll assert his own performances as justification for the A/S order, I'll cite my personal preference for the three-strikes-and-you're-out treatment for the hammer blows (especially since the last one comes unexpectedly and devilishly late upon the already-staggering victim).  It's no small satisfaction that Mackerras, Bernstein(VPO), Schwarz, Levine(BSO), and Delfs all saw fit to include three hammer blows in their latter renditions.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 03:57:44 AM by Russ Smiley »
Russ Smiley

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2010, 05:03:03 AM »
...(especially since the last one comes unexpectedly and devilishly late upon the already-staggering victim).  It's no small satisfaction that Mackerras, Bernstein(VPO), Schwarz, Levine(BSO), and Delfs all saw fit to include three hammer blows in their latter renditions.


This raises an interesting question. Yes, the third hammer blow is supposed to "come unexpectedly and devilishly late," at seven measures before figure [165]. So why did Bernstein in his 1988 Vienna recording put it ten bars too early, right at figure [164], exactly where it is expected? If you listen carefully, there's no doubt that he's done this—I've just never understood his reasoning.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

john haueisen

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2010, 11:21:47 PM »
Wish I had an answer, James.  It's bothered me too. 

Offline Michael

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2010, 01:31:57 AM »
As far as Bernstein's 1988 Vienna recording, I offer the following:

While Bernstein does make a lot of noise at figure 164, the place where the third hammer is to fall is marked by what sounds to me like a febal thump on a bass drum as well as the fate motif on timpani.

I personally am also a three hammer blow person in M6.  In terms of recordings with all three hammers...Zander, Rattle, Levine (BSO), Solti, Bernstein (both), Schwarz, and oh don't let me forget the Delfs.  Aside from Zander's Boston Philharmonic recording, the hammer blows in Delfs' MSO recording are some of the best I've heard--especially the last one!  :D
How are the hammers in the Mackerras recording?  I haven't heard much about that recording other than it's been out a while.  As a general rule I wouldn't mind giving it a listen.
Michael

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2010, 05:00:39 AM »
....the hammer blows in Delfs' MSO recording are some of the best I've heard--especially the last one!  :D How are the hammers in the Mackerras recording?....

I think Mackerras' hammer blows are profound.  I've just listened while referencing the Kahnt 1906 score in PDF that I downloaded.  The first hammer is a powerful thud @ 12:37 (#129, hammer marked fff); the second is a deep thud with tam-tam @ 16:56 (#140 hammer marked ff); there's a broad, deep tam-tam @ 26:35 (#164) that is followed at 27:00 with a real deep explosion (hammer marked ff) with a rolling drum for the 3rd.

The Kahnt score shows the bass drum smack at #164 is marked forte with tam-tam and rolling timpani, and ten bar later the 3rd hammer blow is accompanied by a rolling snare while the timpani beats the fate motif.  Could it be that the bass drum is simply too loud in Bernstein's recording?
Russ Smiley

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2010, 06:24:33 AM »
The Kahnt score shows the bass drum smack at #164 is marked forte with tam-tam and rolling timpani, and ten bars later the 3rd hammer blow is accompanied by a rolling snare while the timpani beats the fate motif.  Could it be that the bass drum is simply too loud in Bernstein's recording?


Russ,

I'm quite convinced that the extremely loud event at figure 164 in the Bernstein/Vienna recording is the third hammer blow. It exactly matches the tone quality of the earlier two hammer blows, and it doesn't sound anything like the Vienna bass drum even when that drum's played louder in other spots. Also, nothing happens seven measures before figure 165 in the recording which sounds anything like the earlier two hammer blows, even considering that the hammer might have been played at a lower dynamic level there (but of course hammer blow #3 is marked "fortissimo," so it should be just as loud as hammer blow #2—which the event at figure 164 is).

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline Michael

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2010, 11:12:23 AM »
I just listened to the aforementioned passage of the Bernstein/Vienna recording.  There is definitely some sort of a thud 7 measures before #165, right where that third hammer blow should be.  It is almost inaudible but it is there--towards the right side, where as the timpani are on the left.  It reminds me of Schwarz's third hammer blow in his version where I think he uses a bass drum, but again I am not sure.
Michael

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2010, 02:06:29 PM »
I just listened to the aforementioned passage of the Bernstein/Vienna recording.  There is definitely some sort of a thud 7 measures before #165, right where that third hammer blow should be.  It is almost inaudible but it is there--towards the right side, where as the timpani are on the left.  It reminds me of Schwarz's third hammer blow in his version where I think he uses a bass drum, but again I am not sure.

But all the hammer blows—including the third one at figure 164—are very clearly on the left side of the sound stage.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline David Hornik

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Re: Are Mahlerites LOSERS??
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2010, 02:02:07 PM »
There may be something to John's idea because there is much mournfulness and nostalgia--generally not such adaptive emotions--and great inwardness in Mahler. These are not always the best orientations for getting on in that stupid world out there, where you have to make money, get along with people, etc.

 

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