Are Mahlerites LOSERS??

[Michael]

That is a very good point.  Mahler's music is so difficult to explain, or even understand, unless you have a bit of a background in the emotions he was dealing with.
I am in the process of writing a "farewell" editorial for my school's newspaper.  I want to invoke Mahler's Ninth, especially since my feelings mirror those of the final movement, but I cannot seem to do it in under a page!  ;-)

[mahler09]

Exactly.  When I first discovered Mahler after hearing his first symphony at a concert last May, I absolutely loved it.  But now that he has become a full-blown obsession (sad but true) and I have done a considerable amount of reading, I understand where he is coming from and his music so much more.   
Reading about editorials reminded of Mahler's quote “If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.”  :)

[perotin]

I don't see any of the highly esteemed politicians, world class university professors, world famous actors (except for Alec Baldwin), etc, being Mahler lovers.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/keating-promoted-culture-as-something-to-celebrate-20090915-fp5e.html

 

[justininsf]

Mahler addicts are 'likely' to 'become' losers for one very obvious reason:

Listening to the music for much of your time will rob you of valuable time that you could use towards advancing your career and promotion. This is why those who are most successful don't know, don't listen to classical music; they simply don't have time for all that.

It's just one reason and there are other reasons.

John,

HI John,

I'm a fellow MIT alum as well, although only for undergrad (course 2, I'm guessing you were course 6?), I was never the PhD let alone MS/MEng material!  Not too many Mahler fans when I went there, sure, lots of musicians, but not too many Mahlerites.

I think you bring up a great point, and there have been great responses by Barry and Amphissa and everyone actually.

Without a doubt I agree with the observation that Mahlerites tend to be "losers".  The activity of listening to music and collecting recordings of the same work is obsessive and at its very nature extremely anti-social.  I think we can assume we all fall into this group since the threads here are comparative threads about Mahler recordings.  Even if you go to concerts with other people, you're still going to experience something deeply personal that is not interactive.

While obsession can lead to success, in this specific case I don't think it does (unless your name is Tony Duggan and your only interaction is with Mahlerites!).  Successful people and leaders usually don't spend time holed up in a room listening to music hours on hours comparing nuances between 10 recordings of the same piece.  I do!  I've been collecting music, specifically multiple recordings of the same piece, since I was about 16.  I heard Mahler very young, around that age, and fell in love.  I also loved Bruckner and Scriabin and Ravel.  Classical music is already introspective, but these brutes take introspection to another level.   And unfortunately introspection is rather anti-social, and at a young age won't bring you any closer to your goal of becoming a CEO, a business leader, or whatever you define as being a traditional embodiment of success.

As I've gotten older I have to admit that I am trying to shed this sort of behavior.  It is very obsessive.  My wife hates it when I put on headphones and listen to music, as she knows that I'm cutting myself off not only from her but from the real world.  I also notice that very few women exhibit this sort of behavior (few?  I've never heard of any to be honest), it is  exclusively male.  I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's ridiculous.  I have at least 10 recordings of every Mahler symphony.  Any normal person would say that is borderline crazy.

I also have a background in music, I studied music since 6, I wanted to become a pianist since high school, I just didn't have the discipline (listening to too many Mahler recordings when I should have been practicing!).  None of my childhood friends who actually became professional classical musicians are obsessive about recordings or things like that.  As a musician, I look at them as being successful - they are able to make a career out of the thing they love.  They don't have their favorite Mahler this, conductor that, oh, nevermind...   this topic is a whole different thread I think.

In a way music is not too dissimilar from drugs when taken to an extreme level.  Mahler is extreme.  Collecting Mahler is even more extreme.  Seems like this board is a support group for our shared addiction.   

[waderice]

As I've gotten older I have to admit that I am trying to shed this sort of behavior.  It is very obsessive.  My wife hates it when I put on headphones and listen to music, as she knows that I'm cutting myself off not only from her but from the real world.  I also notice that very few women exhibit this sort of behavior (few?  I've never heard of any to be honest), it is  exclusively male.  I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's ridiculous.  I have at least 10 recordings of every Mahler symphony.  Any normal person would say that is borderline crazy.

I had the rare and unusual treat of seeing Marin Alsop conduct the Baltimore Symphony in M9 two or three years ago, and I don't recall ever seeing any other female conductor (and I've seen a few women conduct symphony orchestras) put as much concentration, intensity, and sweat into conducting a work as difficult and all-consuming as this symphony is.  Over the years in her development as a conductor, she's had to listen to numerous recordings of the work by various conductors, not to mention her teacher, Leonard Bernstein.  And to top it all off, symphony management expected her to come back on stage after the concert to say a few words to the audience as well as to answer some questions, which she did.  What dedication to her art and her career!

Wade

[justininsf]

As I've gotten older I have to admit that I am trying to shed this sort of behavior.  It is very obsessive.  My wife hates it when I put on headphones and listen to music, as she knows that I'm cutting myself off not only from her but from the real world.  I also notice that very few women exhibit this sort of behavior (few?  I've never heard of any to be honest), it is  exclusively male.  I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's ridiculous.  I have at least 10 recordings of every Mahler symphony.  Any normal person would say that is borderline crazy.

I had the rare and unusual treat of seeing Marin Alsop conduct the Baltimore Symphony in M9 two or three years ago, and I don't recall ever seeing any other female conductor (and I've seen a few women conduct symphony orchestras) put as much concentration, intensity, and sweat into conducting a work as difficult and all-consuming as this symphony is.  Over the years in her development as a conductor, she's had to listen to numerous recordings of the work by various conductors, not to mention her teacher, Leonard Bernstein.  And to top it all off, symphony management expected her to come back on stage after the concert to say a few words to the audience as well as to answer some questions, which she did.  What dedication to her art and her career!

Wade

Wade, I talk about the negative effects of being an obsessive Mahlerite and you take the opportunity to share with us a story about a female conductor performing Mahler.  I think the Mahleritis is strong in you!!!

[barry guerrero]

I agree to some extent, but also disagree. "Anti-social" behavior is often times a label tossed around by people who take way too much time to communicate something simple, and also place a lot of value on yacking just for the sake of yacking - small talk, in other words. While not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, how's that being more productive than spending time on something that's an intellectual pursuit? As much as we talk about Mahler being 'emotional' music, it also has great intellectual appeal in my opinion. I think it's a mistake to begin discussing Mahler in purely emotional terms. That's just me.

If being a 'loser' means that one isn't spending ALL of their time either working, studying, or schmoozing with others, then I guess the world is full of all kinds of losers. At least 'Mahlerian' losers generally mind their own business and don't run around hurting others.

[justininsf]

I agree to some extent, but also disagree. "Anti-social" behavior is often times a label tossed around by people who take way too much time to communicate something simple, and also place a lot of value on yacking just for the sake of yacking - small talk, in other words. While not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, how's that being more productive than spending time on something that's an intellectual pursuit? As much as we talk about Mahler being 'emotional' music, it also has great intellectual appeal in my opinion. I think it's a mistake to begin discussing Mahler in purely emotional tems. That's just me.

If being a 'loser' means that one isn't spending ALL of their time either working, studying, or schmoozing with others, then I guess the world is full of all kinds of losers. At least 'Mahlerian' losers generally mind their own business and don't run around hurting others.

While I may have painted in broad strokes to get my point across, I used anti-social to mean not being engaged with other human beings, I didn't mean not being overly talkative.  Maybe overly withdrawn or overly introverted would be more accurate.  My goal was to answer John's first post, the question of being a "loser" vs a "successful" person.  Notice the use of quotes, these are all loosely defined terms with different meanings for different.  Again, I am trying to make a point, so some hyperbole is used.

A "successful" (and I mean what is traditionally considered successful) person isn't necessarily intellectual, or smart, or whatever, but defined by one thing:  achieving a certain level of status in society in a given field, whether that is through academia, entertainment, business.  Often times it is associated with having influence and power over many other people and more often than not not it means having money.  Most people would say that Kim Kardashian is not talented and has little to offer society, yet by many markers she is "successful".

Being a "loser" is NOT a bad thing!  Embrace it, we are Mahlerites!

[waderice]

Wade, I talk about the negative effects of being an obsessive Mahlerite and you take the opportunity to share with us a story about a female conductor performing Mahler.  I think the Mahleritis is strong in you!!!

Justin, you missed the point of my post completely.  I was responding to your comment that you don't know of any women whatsoever who exhibit "Mahleritis".  I made the point of telling the story about Marin Alsop, the female music director of the Baltimore Symphony, performing a wonderful Mahler 9th, as an exception to your comment.  Though Mahler is my favorite composer, I do listen to others, and have made comments elsewhere here at the GMB about works by other composers.

Wade

[justininsf]

Wade, I talk about the negative effects of being an obsessive Mahlerite and you take the opportunity to share with us a story about a female conductor performing Mahler.  I think the Mahleritis is strong in you!!!

Justin, you missed the point of my post completely.  I was responding to your comment that you don't know of any women whatsoever who exhibit "Mahleritis".  I made the point of telling the story about Marin Alsop, the female music director of the Baltimore Symphony, performing a wonderful Mahler 9th, as an exception to your comment.  Though Mahler is my favorite composer, I do listen to others, and have made comments elsewhere here at the GMB about works by other composers.

Wade

I was trying to be humorous.   

Actually the point of my original post was not that there are no female Mahlerites, but that I've yet to come across females that exhibit this collecting syndrome - buying multiple recordings of the same piece.  It's not just music, you see that in collecting in general.  Of course that's just a generalization, there are always exceptions.  Although I've seen this TV show called Hoarders where you see quite a few few individuals, both male and female, with quite robust collecting habits.

[Penny]

Wade, your post has brought me out of the woodwork - I’m that rare bird, a woman who likes Mahler, so I can identify with Marin Alsop to some extent.  (When I first saw the name, I read it as Martin Alsop!)

Would anyone call Gilbert Kaplan a loser?  What about Simon Rattle and the many people who have become musicians or achieved other things as a result of Mahler’s inspiration?  For example, a friend of mine, Keith Clarke, an architect and long-time Mahler-enthusiast, was inspired to write a book about the places where Mahler composed.  My discovery of Mahler came at a pivotal point in my life, and gave me the strength I needed to stand up and be counted – as the oriental saying goes, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”.  I went on to study music at University and made a new life and many friends as a result – would you call that being a loser?  How should success be defined – by the amount of money and material goods you have, or by living the life you want?  Mahler has enriched my life immeasurably, and saved my (relative) sanity more than once – I feel immensely privileged and lucky to have discovered him.

To me, the “losers” are those people who spend all their time playing pointless computer games or going out on Saturday night and getting drunk out of their minds because it’s supposed to be fun and you’re supposed to enjoy it!  (Is that all there is?  I can now answer that question with a resounding NO!!!)

It’s probably true though that the collecting mentality is a man thing – I haven’t got the time, patience or resources for that!