Bernstein/DG Mahler Box Set - My First Impressions

[Michael]

Hi everyone,

As mentioned in an earlier thread, I bought the Bernstein/DG Mahler Symphonies box set this morning from iTunes.  I am only really familiar with the Sixth and to a lesser extent the Ninth from this set, so I will focus my comments on those two works and leave it to those more experienced to comment on the other works.

After listening to a little of each movement from both M6 and M9, I can conclude that yes, there are sonic differences between the previous releases and this latest one.  I found that I could definitely hear more hall noise than before--especially in the quieter passages.  In the Sixth, I noticed the harp part a couple times in the first movement where I previously did not know there was one.
This "added" detail is kind of like what we saw with Sony's remastering of Lenny's first cycle, but on a lesser scale.  Personally, having these extra details, particularly the background noise in the hall, serve to give the performances that "live" atmosphere that so charges any recording.

One thing I was a little dismayed by...in the beginning of M5 and the Andante of M6, and probably other places as well, I noticed a little distortion--a digital "roughness" to the tone that I do not remember being there in previous recordings.  I do not know if this is due to the 256kb/s M4A compression used on iTunes, or if this is a problem on DG's end.  If it is an iTunes compression problem, this would represent the first time I have noticed problems of this magnitude in a compressed iTunes file.  If this is a DG problem, well, someone should have caught that.  Thoughts?
[Update: The sound to which I am referring is like what one hears when a CD skips.  Apple refunded me the cost of my purchase with no questions asked, so bravo to them for taking care of the problem promptly.  I ended up buying the set directly from DG in lossless .FLAC format.]

Best,

[John Kim]

Michael.

Thanks for the report. This is really encouraging. But my Japanese imports of the M9th also has more ambiance, sounds less shrill and warmer than the original DG releases. Could you tell me if there is any indication on the box cover that DG had gone though a digital remastering for this release?

Sorry, I forgot you got them online!

John,

[John Kim]

Michael,

My version is this

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/45682

except "Item sourced from: Japan".

Is this also what you're comparing to? And you're saying the new version sounds even better than this?

Wow

John,

[Michael]

John,

I heard a copy of the Japanese SHM-CD version of the M9 from the complete set resampled down to standard CD quality audio.  And yes, there are more subtle details (again, hall noise comes to mind) in this 2010 CD quality release.  And this is from iTunes.

[Michael]

I heard a version of the M9 based loosely on the Japanese SHM-CD.  The timings are the same as in the 2005 regular CD release (for the M6 at least, so I assume for the M9 as well) so I suspect that is the source of the version I heard.  That said, I can assume that this new release is superior to the 2005 release.

[Leo K]

Upon listening to the samples on iTunes this release indeed sounds pretty impressive.  To my ear they sound as good as the SHM-CD and possibly even better, but I would need to hear the complete recording of one of the symphonies to really know.  I'm seeing this set as low as 34 bucks out there.

I am tempted, but have other music on the burner at the moment...and I'm happy with my Carnagie Hall set of Lenny's first cycle as well as my original vinyl of the RCO M9 which sounds the best of all the versions I've yet heard.

Perhaps if this new Edition stays cheap I'll get it a little later.

Thanks for the reports Michael!

--Todd

[Michael]

Todd, just don't buy it on iTunes if you decide to buy it...the sound quality problems I noted with the iTunes version sound like the sounds one hears when a CD skips.  In a quiet part of the M9 Finale the sound does this and it is very noticeable.  Apple instantly refunded me the cost of my purchase, and that is really worth noting.  I went ahead and bought the set (for $39.99) from DG's web shop  in lossless FLAC format.

[Russell]

Michael--I'd like to know of any sonic improvements you hear with the FLAC versions.  (There should be!)  Thanks.

Russell

[James Meckley]

I just ordered the boxed set of these CDs through Amazon—the price was too good to pass up. I'm old fashioned in preferring actual CDs to the vagaries of downloads, even when available in FLAC format. I'm hoping to hear improved sound over my 1991 boxed set of the same recordings (this was the first integral set of the Bernstein DG Mahler symphonies to be released and was said, at the time, to represent a sonic improvement over at least some of the earlier individual releases).

In case anyone might be interested, I'll post my impressions of the sonic differences—if any—between the two sets. On the discouraging side, someone on the Mahler List just reported, having bought the new set and carefully compared its M6 with his original individual release of the same work, that he could detect absolutely no difference between the two recordings. If I come to the same conclusion about the entirety of the set, the bulkier of the two (1991) will make a handsome present for one of my young Mahlerite friends.

James

[Michael]

Well James, I would review my previous recordings, but I fear I will listen harder to try to pick out those details I noticed in the 2010 release.  I guess all I can say is that I have heard three incarnations of Lenny's VPO M6: the original album release, a version I think is from the 2005 release, and this.  When I obtained my second version, I really listened hard to it but could not notice anything new in terms of sonics.  This, on the other hand...I noticed details without necessairally listening too hard.

[John Kim]

I have the most sensitive ears of us all!

So, send the discs to me and I will make the verdict .

John,

[Michael]

This is true, John.  I have noticed that you and Todd seem to listen more for details than I do.  I thought about actually going out to get the CDs--after my experience with iTunes--but the nearest store that had them was an hour or so away.  I plan just to make a back-up DVD of all of these to have on hand.

[James Meckley]

The 2010 11-disc DG "Collectors Edition" [sic] of the Bernstein Mahler symphonies arrived on Saturday and I've had a chance to do some comparisons with my 13-disc 1991 boxed set of the same recordings. The 1991 set is probably the same mastering as the original individual releases, though at least one contemporary reviewer said he heard a slight improvement in a couple of the symphonies.

The 2010 set sounds generally less coarse & grainy, and less "shrill" than the 1991 set, though it's not entirely free of the digital harshness that afflicted louder passages in many DG recordings from the 80s—you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The degree of change varies by symphony, but I heard some improvement in each one that I tried (and that includes No. 6 as mentioned in my earlier post). The individual instruments often seem better focused and more precisely located within the soundstage, and I hear more depth and sense of space around the instruments. Many small details are cleaner and clearer, including some of LB's vocalizations.

I haven't heard any of the versions of this set released between 1991 and 2010, so I have no sense as to the point at which these improvements occurred. This release may sound exactly like the last (2005?) release or it may not—that's for someone else to determine. I've intentionally not tried to quantify the differences because I know from experience that a change that is fall-out-of-your-chair dramatic to one listener might represent a ho-hum improvement to another. I'll just say that I enjoy listening to the 2010 version more that to the 1991, and I plan to dispose of the older one soon.

The only negatives I found with the new one are: 1) its booklet is spartan at best, and 2) squeezing over 9 symphonies onto 11 discs has caused an even less convenient movement distribution than usual.

EDIT: Another plus for the new set—DG's irritating practice of assigning multiple track numbers to a single movement (for purposes of analysis?) has been eliminated in all but Symphony No. 8.

James

[Michael]

James,

So it is not just me...there is somewhat of an improvement!    Yes, the sixth is definitely not as shrill as in the release I have from 1990.  Either that, or I have gotten somewhat used to the bright DG sound.  LOL.
You mentioned that the masters might be the same as in the individual releases...so does that mean that the 1991 set you think is a different master?  That would be very interesting to hear.

Just glad it wasn't a waste of money...the review on the Mahler-List had me a bit concerned that I had jumped the gun.

[James Meckley]

You mentioned that the masters might be the same as in the individual releases...so does that mean that the 1991 set you think is a different master? 

Michael,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that the original individual releases and the 1991 boxed set are likely sourced from the same production masters, in that they sound the same. The 2010 set seems to be sourced from a different set of production masters—representing a remastering of the original session tapes. The original session tapes (original masters) would have been the same in all cases.

James