Author Topic: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio  (Read 17287 times)

Offline HinseM

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New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« on: April 12, 2010, 03:27:59 PM »
Hi everybody,

we all know that Mahler didn't completely finish his tenth symphony, altough he did leave some sketches. The Ricciotti Ensemble, a dutch student orchestra, asked me to orchestrate the third movement, 'Purgatorio', and they just finished touring the Netherlands with the piece.

It was quite a challenge to work with the piece: Mahler actually left some very detailed instructions for this movement, but the Ricciotti lacks a harp and a big woodwind and brass section, so I had to be very creative with the instrumentation. They did however have things like saxophones, wich I sometimes used as substitutes and even gave a few solos.

Please tell me what you think of this version of Mahler, and you can also comment on whether you think it's even possible to orchestrate Mahler's 10th.

Here's the youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxlfcwBZflE

greetings,

Hinse Mutter

Offline sperlsco

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 08:05:53 PM »
Very enjoyable!   ;D

Thanks!!
Scott

Offline stillivor

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 02:31:47 PM »
Yes, I enjoyed it and thanks for sharing it.

Thought it was pretty good, I must say.

I also loved the orchestra standing to play. And I was most struck immediately how colourful they were. Would that far more concerts looked like that.

Of course the 10th is up for orchestration. We won't get pure Mahler, and the orchestration will say a lot about the orchestrator. The number of attempts shows both that there is enough material to try, and not enough that there can't be a variety of ideas.

Mahler's attitude generally to performance of his music [and all music, far as I can tell] seems to me to have been 'Do what you think best'.

As far as I can work out, Cooke is the one who has kept himself out of the picture most. He was a very honest man, and belongs to the Mahlerian tradition of trying to be as faithful as possible to the facts, inside and outside the score.

   Very best wishes from Norwich in Norfolk, U.K.


    Ivor

PS. Had a wonderful 3 days in Amsterdam nearly 2 years ago at a nephew's wedding.  ;D

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 06:58:37 AM »
Freakin' fantastic! I think the sax sounded just fine where you worked it in. I'm guessing it was a tenor sax. (or an alto player with a very dark tone!), and that he/she took over one of the bassoon licks. It sounded just fine. I wondered if you're percussionist was going to cover the tam-tam stroke at the very end of the movement. Then I saw that he was holding up about an 18" or 22" Wuhan. It sounded pretty good too. I noticed that you had him scrape the front of the tam-tam, just a few bars before the end. That was an interesting idea - a sort of "Rite Of Spring" moment. Now, if I may be so bold (or arrogant), I would like to suggest two other spots where one could tam-tam to great effect.

The first spot where I would add tam-tam is at bar 98. There, Mahler has the first and second bassoons drop down a fourth from the third line "D", to the first space "A". That sets up a sort of "drone" sound between the "D" in the bass (below the bass staff), and the A-natural. A soft tam-tam stroke would compliment that drone sound very nicely. The other spot is right at the very climax of the movement, bar 113 (sehr gehalten) - a nice, solid forte. At the slow tempo that you employ there (I like it!), you could let that small tam-tam ring clear over to bar 115 ("A tempo", for those of you who might be keeping track). If you happen to like either or both of these suggestions, you're perfectly welcome to take credit. I would just like to hear someone give those two spots a try.

I'll tell you one thing, it would be very difficult to get a youth ensemble to play this in America - not because it's technically difficult, but because the music and its subject matter is so erudite, and "adult" in nature. Did you tell them that the title "Purgatorio" might very well be based on a poem regarding adultery (according to De La Grange and others)?

Anyway, I thought that both you and your young musicians did a fantastic job. Thanks for sharing.

Barry Guerrero


Oh, two more thoughts. I really liked the stopped horn notes. I heard stopped horn at least twice. Also, I would suggest adding a bass drum stroke at bar 95 - played about mezzo forte, or slightly less - as bar 95 is sort of the "low point" for the entire movement.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:19:14 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline HinseM

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 06:11:17 PM »
Thanks for the comments everybody!

As far as the orchestra goes: here in the Netherlands we have both a long Mahler tradition and also lots of fairly good student orchestras, which means that most of the people in this video have already played several Mahler symphonies and have a huge amount of orchestral experience. This particularly orchestra (www.ricciotti.nl , I don't seem to be able to find the hyperlink button) is very special in that it has only 40 players, doesn't need chairs or concert clothes and has a special instrumentation, so we can literally run out of our tour bus and play anywhere we want in under three minutes (the record was set at 2:12 a few projects ago, including putting up percussion ;D). We play everywhere for everyone, and gave more than 20 concerts in six days on this tour. Some places we played where: a juvenile correctional facility, old peoples' homes, some pulbic squares where the police kicked us out, a university canteen etc. etc. The footage was taken on the last tour day, and we were all dressed up for no reason ::) I'm the double bass player wearing the bunny ears :-\

We talked about the circumstances under which Mahler wrote his tenth, and we discussed the various outcries he had written in the short score (O God why have you abandoned me etc.). I do feel it sometimes helps when people know what the music is about, altough wearing little butterfly wings (the cello's) when playing Purgatorio perhaps kinda defeated the purpose sometimes ;D. There were also a lot of jokes about cheating made by our announcer, before we played. Everybody can relate to that.

OK guys, here follows some boring technical stuff for the people who really care ;)

You can indeed hear an alto saxophone at the end: Mahler didn't actually specify instrumentation for the last couple of bars, and I had to keep the piece interesting for all the players so... :D. She also plays the viola part (again, not really specified by Mahler in these three bars) in bar 89-91, altough they're not really in time on this recording. The soprano saxophone sometimes doubles as second trumpet, and also has part of the oboe solo in the reprise, starting at bar 144. Most of the difficulties in the rest of the piece were in choosing what to do when Mahler wrote a chord for 3 trombones, clarinets or whatever, when you only have one or two. This was mostly taken over by horns, bassoons etc. The stopped horns actually cheated a little bit I think ;). I wrote down Mahler's notes but the 2nd voice was too low for the player to make a good sound, so she transposed it one octave higher. O well, nice solution.

Initially I tried something new in bars 70-73: Mahler is very unclear about instrumentation here and my idea was to have oboes in combination with saxophones or something like that play the melody, and the trumpet joining in for the crescendo in bar 73. I was overruled here on grounds of range of the trumpet when the conductor asked for an Eb instrument instead of a C. Perhaps for the best, but now it did end up being very much like Cooke's version.

That's one thing about the entire orchestration by the way: I tried my best to first and foremost follow Mahler's sketches, and that way I ended up with a version that doesn't differ that much on first sight with Cooke's version, because he also worked that way. I tried to make this version of Mahler as much my own unique one as possible, but in the end, because Mahler specified so much in his sketches, there are thousands of small differences between my version and others, and very few major ones.

Barry, thank you for your suggestions! The tam-tam glissando was indeed at least subconciously inspired by the Sacre 8). It was also the last thing I added before we printed the music. They hired a tam-tam specially for this piece on a tour with 24 other pieces, so I was very proud they took the trouble. Incidentally, other special instruments on this tour included rainsticks, electric guitar and...... bicycle bells. Dutch orchestra's, go figure;)
I see what you mean by using the tam-tam in a few other places. Bar 97 could indeed be very beautifull, like Mahler's 4th, 2nd movement near the end, with the low C's. You've got me really thinking about it, using tam-tam or even bass drum pppp in this place. (I wish I had a double bassoon here ;)) I agree that it's a very special place: I think everybody can visualize something epic here. What I did here to try and create a special atmosphere was having the double basses, and trombone play a low d, and also 2nd flute play a low d. You would ofcourse have to hear it live, but it did feel really special. Flutes in a low register always add an eerie sound. Cooke actually used flutes to double the viola/cello melody in bar 56/57, wich again shows that there's a lot of fun to be had orchestrating.
The 'A tempo' after Gehalten is a place where I wouldn't use the tam-tam. I think the character needs to be light there.
Bass drum in bar 95 is also a good idea, altough I would do a one bar tremolo with diminuendo there. I have timpani playing a d tremolo there in my version, but a bass drum certainly would also have sounded nice.

On another note: I've been in contact with Frans Bouwman, who's preparing a transcription of the sketches of Mahler's 10th symphony. He was ofcourse very interested, and ofcóurse give his transcription to me after I was finished orchestrating by myself ::) (talk about being late :-\ :D) He will probably publish his transcriptions somewhere next year, so all you Mahler lovers with no fascimile's near you, keep a good look-out for it! That's also a good thing about living in the Netherlands: I just went to the National Library, got the Zsolnay fascimile of Mahler's sketches, made some copies (library's are really crazy, letting people make copies ::)) and was home a few hours later, starting on the orchestration. 8)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 06:15:12 PM by HinseM »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 06:27:12 PM »
Wow, thanks for the taking the time and trouble to share your insights. Mr. Bouwman is quite the Mahler 10 aficionado. I once shared my views and ideas on reorchestrating Mahler 10 with him, but I think he got confused as to what my main points were. Anyway, good luck on all future endeavours. In my opinion, Mahler 10 is the last, great "archeological dig" in all of music.

Offline mike bosworth

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 08:36:56 AM »

Quote
On another note: I've been in contact with Frans Bouwman, who's preparing a transcription of the sketches of Mahler's 10th symphony. He was ofcourse very interested, and ofcóurse give his transcription to me after I was finished orchestrating by myself ::) (talk about being late :-\ :D) He will probably publish his transcriptions somewhere next year, so all you Mahler lovers with no fascimile's near you, keep a good look-out for it! That's also a good thing about living in the Netherlands: I just went to the National Library, got the Zsolnay fascimile of Mahler's sketches, made some copies (library's are really crazy, letting people make copies ::)) and was home a few hours later, starting on the orchestration. 8)

Lucky you, having access to the Zsolnay facsimile.  You may know that a key Purgatorio sketch page was missing in the Zsolnay and Ricke facsimiles.  This page finally re-surfaced a few years ago and resides at the Bavarian State Library in Munich.  If you don't already have a copy, I'm sure Frans Bouwman can direct you to one.  His computerized, 'diplomatic' transcription incorporating all known M10 sketches was supposed to appear under the auspices of the IGMG in Vienna, but I haven't seen an update on the status for some time now.

Mike Bosworth
Hanoi

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 04:26:35 PM »
I'm waiting for such things to become available before I begin on any kind of M10 project. I'm not using that as an excuse, as right now is NOT a good time for me to make any long term commitments, or begin time consuming projects (I'm taking care of a family member, and my own health hasn't be great in recent times). I want to go after the second movement (first scherzo) first, and that's going to be a HUGE project. It needs a lot of help.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 05:01:04 PM »
I'm waiting for such things to become available before I begin on any kind of M10 project. I'm not using that as an excuse, as right now is NOT a good time for me to make any long term commitments, or begin time consuming projects (I'm taking care of a family member, and my own health hasn't be great in recent times). I want to go after the second movement (first scherzo) first, and that's going to be a HUGE project. It needs a lot of help.

Barry
We should all raise a funding for Barry's grand project on another completion of M10 8) ;).

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 10:24:46 PM »
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I won't take people's hard earned money. The reason: I have no idea if any work I manage to get done would be any good or not.  (???)  But truthfully, I don't believe that I would make the second movement any worse than it already is. Maybe we'll all see someday.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 01:13:50 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 05:19:59 AM »
Barry,

You know, if we help you financially you'll have more drive and passion to finish the work :-*.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 05:39:20 AM »
Love you too john. I made a commitment to my father that I would look after my mother. I'm also just plain tired, as I work 7 days per week. It'll all happen someday. Patience.

Offline John Kim

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 06:38:39 AM »
Barry,

I seriously hope that all of us could help you complete your version of M10 the way you have been dreaming all these years.

Best luck in taking care of your parents.

Best,

John,


Offline HinseM

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 12:11:13 PM »
Hi guys, just a short reply here. I visited Frans Bouwman, dutch Mahler 10 expert, and had a very nice talk about the 10th. I'm probably gonna be a proof reader for his publication of Mahler's sketches for the 10th 8), and maybe I'll get to see Gamzou, the Israeli guy working on his version of the 10th: he's visiting Frans somewhere in the next few weeks :).

And by the way, there's also another, better quality recording of my version of Mahler here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOluIvN1DZg

It was a concert with hundreds of children attending, and in the middle of the video, when the recapitulation starts, you can hear a girl say "mooi, MOOI, MOOOOI, mooi" over and over. 'Mooi' is the dutch word for 'pretty' ;D.

Offline mahler09

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Re: New orchestration of Mahler 10 - Purgatorio
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 01:26:18 AM »
That's awesome that you have the opportunities to meet so many Mahler experts!  I listened to your orchestration and liked it a lot.  Some of the not-so-typical orchestral instruments (i.e. saxophone) worked very well.

 

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