Author Topic: Norrington M9...My First Impressions  (Read 17340 times)

Offline Michael

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Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« on: April 27, 2010, 10:38:17 PM »
I went ahead and bought the Norrington M9 this morning on Amazon MP3.

The lack of vibrato is most noticeable in the two outer movements, particularly in the Adagio.  What I heard of the first movement so far was good--nothing really stood out, save for the lack of vibrato in the strings which gave the music a "glossy" feel.  The Landler is on the quicker--and lighter--side, kind of like Maazel's recent NYPO M9.  What I heard of the Rondo again, like the first movement, did not stand out.
As far as the Adagio, which is really why I bought this recording...well, it's...fast.  ;-)  As in the first movement, the vibratoless string playing has a shallow, "slippery" sound to it.
Of concern also is the timing.  I have no idea why Norrington took the movement so fast; it is not marked "Andante Moderato."

Overall, I think it is worth hearing if you are curious.  If you've heard Norrington's M9 from that radio broadcast, or any other Norrington M9 performance and didn't like it, don't waste your time and money on this latest recording.
Michael

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 12:10:31 AM »
.......Overall, I think it is worth hearing if you are curious.  If you've heard Norrington's M9 from that radio broadcast, or any other Norrington M9 performance and didn't like it, don't waste your time and money on this latest recording.

Agreed: I listened to the radio version, and, if nothing else, it confirmed the old adage "You don't know what your missing until its gone."
Russ Smiley

Offline Zoltan

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 03:05:28 PM »
Michael, could you tell if the recording is from the live concert broadcast (date should be enough)? Perhaps a revealing cough?

Offline Michael

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 08:22:27 PM »
Well...

I think this could be a live recording, yes.  I have two reasons (so far) for thinking thus:
(1) When the music resumes after the first short pause at the beginning of the Rondo (a couple measures in), one of the low brass instruments comes in before everyone else.  Oops...
(2) I did recall hearing some ambient noise during the Finale...I will have to listen a little closer.
Michael

Offline Russell

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 12:25:36 AM »
FWIW, the Norrington is one of the 'Editor's Choice' releases in this month's Gramophone magazine (May 2010).  It is indeed a live recording, from September 9, 2009.  The reviewer (Edward Seckerson) praises it for its "fundamental" and "unvarnished" Mahler sound, citing Norrington's efforts to emulate what it might have sounded like when the symphony was premiered.  Can't wait to hear it for myself!

Russell

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 02:09:59 AM »
I'm not interested in hearing this because of the no vibrato issue. Instead it's because of it having a 19 minute finale. That makes it sound too rushed to me.

Barry

Offline Leo K

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 04:07:41 AM »
God I really want to hear this now!

Seriously, I actually want to have a fast M9 for days when time is short with job/school and etc...I can get a listen to the whole work on those days.

--Todd


Offline Zoltan

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
If the recording is from the 9th September, then I have it already recorded from the radio. No need to shell out money for curiosity. ;)

See here: http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=1299.msg10047#msg10047

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 02:17:12 PM »
If the recording is from the 9th September, then I have it already recorded from the radio. No need to shell out money for curiosity.


The radio broadcast download from 9/9 that's in general circulation is of very good quality (MP3 at 320 kbps) and—even if it's not the exact same performance found on the commercial CD—should be adequate to satisfy anyone's curiosity as to the merits Norrington's approach. I should think purchase of the CD would be warranted only if one absolutely loves the radio broadcast and wants to own Norrington's "take" on this work in its final sanctioned form. I'll bet the performances are virtually identical.

Speaking of which, I'm troubled by his Adagio; it's not just Norrington's tempi per se, but also his inclination to press forward with everything. A great performance of this movement requires a kind of unhurried inevitibility, which is clearly not present here. On the other hand, the overall sound of his orchestra—partly due to the lack of vibrato and partly due to the engineering—is both beautiful and seductive. There's a transparency and layered clarity that I've rarely heard in this music, and I like it. It's as if you took a favorite work of sculpture, which you'd only seen in a particular museum under a specific set of tungsten spotlights, and put it outside on the lawn on an overcast day. Not so dramatic, but oh so revealing—and beautiful in its own way.

James
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 02:22:33 PM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline John Kim

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 03:03:42 PM »
OK, let's go for it then!! ;D ;D ;D.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 07:05:09 PM »
If the recording is from the 9th September, then I have it already recorded from the radio. No need to shell out money for curiosity.


The radio broadcast download from 9/9 that's in general circulation is of very good quality (MP3 at 320 kbps) and—even if it's not the exact same performance found on the commercial CD—should be adequate to satisfy anyone's curiosity as to the merits Norrington's approach. I should think purchase of the CD would be warranted only if one absolutely loves the radio broadcast and wants to own Norrington's "take" on this work in its final sanctioned form. I'll bet the performances are virtually identical.

Speaking of which, I'm troubled by his Adagio; it's not just Norrington's tempi per se, but also his inclination to press forward with everything. A great performance of this movement requires a kind of unhurried inevitibility, which is clearly not present here. On the other hand, the overall sound of his orchestra—partly due to the lack of vibrato and partly due to the engineering—is both beautiful and seductive. There's a transparency and layered clarity that I've rarely heard in this music, and I like it. It's as if you took a favorite work of sculpture, which you'd only seen in a particular museum under a specific set of tungsten spotlights, and put it outside on the lawn on an overcast day. Not so dramatic, but oh so revealing—and beautiful in its own way.

James

What a great way to put it!  Based on what I've heard so far that's right on.

--Todd

Offline Zoltan

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 01:25:59 PM »

Speaking of which, I'm troubled by his Adagio; it's not just Norrington's tempi per se, but also his inclination to press forward with everything. A great performance of this movement requires a kind of unhurried inevitibility, which is clearly not present here. On the other hand, the overall sound of his orchestra—partly due to the lack of vibrato and partly due to the engineering—is both beautiful and seductive. There's a transparency and layered clarity that I've rarely heard in this music, and I like it. It's as if you took a favorite work of sculpture, which you'd only seen in a particular museum under a specific set of tungsten spotlights, and put it outside on the lawn on an overcast day. Not so dramatic, but oh so revealing—and beautiful in its own way.

James brings up very important points.

Since I'm a regular listener of the RSO Stuttgart (season ticket holder), I can attest, that transparency is indeed at a high level even in the concert hall (depending on where you sit, of course).

Norrington's tendency to hurry and speed up things, while sometimes overstated, does indeed bring excitement into some music. We had Dvorak's 7th last Friday, and the first and (especially) the last movement had plenty of excitement, even though I felt sometimes in the first movement, that he was rushing it. There seems to be quite a hard to find balance which he tends to tip over to "rushed".

As for vibratoless playing: the second (slow) movement has indeed lacked espressivo which is simply a *must* in this truly gorgeous music of Dvorak! Surprisingly, my other concern, that he would make an "Andante" from Dvorak's "Poco adagio" didn't happen.

All said, I think conductor Kenneth Woods described vibratoless playing the best for me (amateur string player), as being a very important tool in shaping the colour of the sound.

And while I wondered if I would ever muster 20 minutes to listen to his Mahler 9th finale, yesterday came the programme for the next season: his last concert as chief conductor will be ...

... Mahler's 9th.


The radio broadcast download from 9/9 that's in general circulation is of very good quality (MP3 at 320 kbps) and—even if it's not the exact same performance found on the commercial CD—should be adequate to satisfy anyone's curiosity as to the merits Norrington's approach.


Some technical points here for those interested.

I recorded the broadcast from satellite radio which is MPEG-1 Layer 2 (MP2) format which is *different* to MP3 (MPEG-1 Layer 2). MP2 compressed music is somewhat less effective, meaning, for the same data rate you'll get lower sound quality. The data rate of the satellite stream was 320 kbit/s MP2 which is very good and, as far as I can tell, CD quality level. This is even less important in live radio broadcasts, since the engineers manipulate the sound quite noticeably. Some are better than other, so I do not fancy radio recordings a lot, since they try having quiet passages louder and loud moments are levelled ("bass drum" moments most often). The German radio engineers are very good, but I heard badly prepared audio broadcasts even from them -- seems like there are technical limitation as to what you can do in a live broadcast.

While most computer audio players can play MP2 files, I thought, many will probably listen to on their digital audio players which usually don't support this format, so I had to recompress it into MP3. Now, each such recompression brings a certain level of loss of quality, which is why you have so many *dreadful* audio broadcasts floating in the internet -- people don't know how they're destroying the quality of the audio! That's why I chose for the recompression the very high bitrate of 320 kbit/s for MP3. I found it was important in this case, since the vibratoless sound of strings has a particular quality which, when rarely heard, could be dismissed as an audio artefact from the compression, a doubt I didn't want to bring up in the listener.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 06:17:04 PM »
Thanks Zoltan for those thoughts.

--Todd

Offline brunumb

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 09:10:06 AM »
Wow, David Hurwitz wasn't holding back when he expressed his opinion :

http://www.classicstoday.com/features/ClassicToday-NorringtonMahlerNinth.pdf


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Norrington M9...My First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 11:32:35 PM »
I'm not a fan of cutting the fourth movement down to 19 minutes, regardless of Walter's 1938 Vienna timing for it. But more to the point, David IS directing us to the facts regarding the last page of the fourth movement: Mahler is very clear about when he wants "espressivo" from his strings (i.e. vibrato), and where he marks "ohne ausdruck" (without expression, or feeling). You can't make those distinctions if you're going to eliminate vibrato from the very beginning. I know that there are other spots where Mahler writes "ohne audruck" as well. This is a very sophisticated, autumnal symphony; one that's highly reliant on the strings, in general. Thus, the sort of simplistic answers and approach that Norrington may have gotten away with in the earlier symphonies, simply won't do in this case. Different doesn't make something better - it just makes it different.

 

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