Author Topic: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)  (Read 17951 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« on: May 01, 2010, 06:41:15 PM »
      

4.0 out of 5 stars
Here, the indescrible is acheived - with one big exception, April 30, 2010
By    B. Guerrero "Mahler nutcase" - See all my reviews

This review is from: Mahler: Symphony No 8 (2 Hybrid Super Audio CD) (Audio CD)

. . and that exception is the cast of soloists employed, but more on that topic later. That said, this is now my personal favorite among Mahler 8 recordings, as it simply captures the larger-than-life moments in all their technicolor glory, while also mining sufficient clarity out of the more "chamber music" like moments as well (such as the hushed choral writing before Doktor Ecastaticus' big solo in Part II, or the gentle yet colorful accompaniment behind the three penitent women, some 30 minutes down the line). In other words, it's simply more like hearing the piece in a good live performance (and the organ IS permitted to roar at Mahler's fortissimo marking, imagine that!). Yet, I wouldn't recommend this new one to anybody who's sensitive about the cast of soloists.

Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey is hardly more successful here than he was on the recent Tilson Thomas/San Francisco S.O. recording of the work. For me, he's the one big downfall amongst this cast. That said, he does improve during the crucial "blicket auf" passage; the second of the tenor's two big solos in Part II. But he's also no match for Solti's Rene Kollo, Johan Botha (Boulez/DG), or, best of all, Richard Leech (Maazel/Sony). Even Jon Villars on the Simon Rattle Mahler 8 is better in the long run.

In Part II, baritone Stephen Powell does a very solid job on Pater Ecstaticus' big solo, but the bass-baritone solo that immediately follows (Pater Profundis) isn't sung nearly as well. Askar Abdrazakov, like MTT's James Morris, barks, wobbles, and nearly goes flat on his top notes. Yet, he does give a valiant, Wagnerian effort. It's just that the difference is immediately noticeable.

By and large, the women are fairly good. The mezzos are a bit "big" sounding for my liking, but this is also a matter of placement. In Part I, it sounds as though Zinman has placed his soloists farther back than in Part II. This makes sense for the opening, "Wagnerian" solos in Part II, but I do wish that the penitent women were placed farther back in this case; the accompaniment behind them is just so light and chamber-like.

As I don't have the booklet with me, I'm not sure which soprano is covering which part. All I can tell you is that the soprano who covers the big solo towards the end of Part II - the one where she tells us of a new, "brighter" day arriving through Faust's upcoming redemption - well, she just nails that solo! (I'll edit this later). But then the ethereal, offstage soprano solo afterwords lacks a little something in lightness and agility. That's one moment that's truly better on the Tilson Thomas Mahler 8 (great mandolin, too - if that matters).

Well, there you have it - that's the worst of it. But the rest is terrific. Part I is a knock-out through and through, and the end of Part II has to be heard to be believed.

Like Tilson-Thomas and Simon Rattle, Zinman does make a big accelerando in the final measures of Part I (Mahler tempers that accelerando with the word, "somewhat"). But more like Gerard Schwartz's recent and excellent effort from Seattle, you can hear ALL of the offstage brass parts as well. That may seem like a petty point, but it actually makes a big difference. In Part II, Zinman is a bit relaxed at times, but he does conjure sufficient intensity out of the two big orchestral outbursts that happen before the baritone solo. He also never loses sight of his main prize, which is the very end of symphony. As if that weren't enough, the climax at the end of the "blicket auf" passage doesn't sound like an anti-climax for once. In other words, Zinman nails ALL of the big moments throughout this performance. It's also a really good sounding pipe organ that they have in the Zurich Tonhalle, in case that matters to you.

Those who are collecting Zinman's mostly fine cycle, along with those who are just plain curious, can purchase this new Mahler 8 with confidence. For those of whom where the cast of soloists is an important issue in this work, I'd suggest sticking to Solti, Kubelik (best singing of all!), Rattle, or Boulez. Bernstein's 1975 Mahler 8 from Vienna - captured on video by Untitel, and transferred to dvd by DG - isn't to be missed either. For such a huge, "feel good" work - the Beethoven's 9th of the Art Nouveau era - we've been remarkably lucky!

Offline sperlsco

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 07:51:42 PM »
Thanks for the detailed review. I had hoped that my copy from Amazon would have arrived for this weekend, but alas it was not to be.  I look forward to hearing this one.  It sounds like the ending to Part II rivals the recent Inbal/Tokyo one? 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 11:18:35 PM »
"It sounds like the ending to Part II rivals the recent Inbal/Tokyo one?"

I like it better, but that's just me. They're both good, actually.

Offline Russell

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 04:08:57 AM »
Thanks for the review, Barry.  I sampled several new Mahler acquisitions this evening, including the Norrington M9 (pretty threadbare, but potent), Tennstedt M2, deVriend M1 (1893 version--more on that one later), and the Zinman M8.  I listened to the end of the Zinman (and turned up the volume about 3 notches higher than normal, as you had suggested), and it was indeed truly glorious.  I can hardly wait to hear the rest of it, but what I did hear was perhaps the most wonderfully shaped and best-recorded M8 that I've heard in recent times.  Great work from the chorus(es) and soloists as well (Anthony Dean Griffey notwithstanding).

Russell

Offline Zoltan

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 10:38:41 AM »
Doctor Ecastaticus?  ??? :D

(Sorry, could not resist ;))

One more note. Usually, the parts that the sopranos sing are in the order on the sleeve. That would make Melanie Diener (Soprano I, Magna Peccatrix), Juliane Banse (Soprano II, Una poenitentium) and Lisa Larsson (Soprano III, that is, Mater gloriosa). I think I have somewhere a recording of Juliane Banse somewhere ...

Also, I forgot to mention in my review, that the first SACD contains a data track with a PDF file of the performer's biographies (which are not included in the booklet).

Offline sperlsco

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 06:56:39 PM »

One more note. Usually, the parts that the sopranos sing are in the order on the sleeve. That would make Melanie Diener (Soprano I, Magna Peccatrix), Juliane Banse (Soprano II, Una poenitentium) and Lisa Larsson (Soprano III, that is, Mater gloriosa).


Correct.  The booklet lists them like this:  Melanie Diener, Magna Peccatrix -- Juliane Banse, Una Poenitentium -- Lisa Larsson, Mater Gloriosa
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 11:29:10 PM »
Whatever - I only really care about one of the soprano solos, ane that's the real big one near the end - the one right before the offstage soprano mini-solo.

Offline Zoltan

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 10:42:55 AM »
Whatever - I only really care about one of the soprano solos, one that's the real big one near the end - the one right before the offstage soprano mini-solo.

I have a "mini-obsession" as to how the soprano utters the word "Tag" at the end. It has to be soft yet firm and maybe a bit lengthened *T*. Love Lucia Popp as Una poenitentium there ...

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 07:35:21 PM »
Yes, the whole transition from "neue" to "tag" is one of the biggest moments in the entire symphony, both "emotionally" and musically speaking.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My EDITED Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 11:21:45 PM »
Here's the revised version. The changes are mostly in the later paragraphs.


. . and that exception is the cast of soloists employed, but more on that topic later. That said, this is now my personal favorite among Mahler 8 recordings, as it simply captures the larger-than-life moments in all their technicolor glory, while also mining sufficient clarity out of the more "chamber music" like moments as well (such as the hushed choral writing before Doktor Ecastaticus' big solo in Part II, or the gentle yet colorful accompaniment behind the three penitent women, some 30 minutes down the line). In other words, it's simply more like hearing the piece in a good live performance (and the organ IS permitted to roar at Mahler's fortissimo marking, imagine that!). Yet, I wouldn't recommend this new one to anybody who's sensitive about the cast of soloists.

Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey is hardly more successful here than he was on the recent Tilson Thomas/San Francisco S.O. recording of the work. For me, he's the one big downfall amongst this cast. That said, he does improve during the crucial "blicket auf" passage; the second of the tenor's two big solos in Part II. But he's also no match for Solti's Rene Kollo, Johan Botha (Boulez/DG), Ben Heppner (C.Davis and Chailly); or, best of all, Richard Leech (Maazel/Sony). Even Jon Villars on the Simon Rattle Mahler 8 is better in the long run.

In Part II, baritone Stephen Powell does a very solid job on Pater Ecstaticus' big solo, but the bass-baritone solo that immediately follows (Pater Profundis) isn't sung nearly as well. Alfred Muff, like MTT's James Morris, barks, wobbles, and nearly goes flat on his top notes. Yet, he does give a valiant, Wagnerian effort. It's just that the difference is immediately noticeable.

By and large, the women are fairly good. Both Yvonne Naef and Birgit Remmart are true contraltos, so they sound a bit "big" during the passage for the three penitent women. In Part I, it sounds as though Zinman has placed his soloists farther back than in Part II. Moving them forward makes sense for the opening, "Wagnerian" solos in Part II, but I do wish those penitent women had been placed farther back in this case; the accompaniment behind them is just so light and chamber-like.

Soprano Juliane Banse is a bit aggressive in her various, "Una Poenitentium" solos in Part II. But she also just nails her one big solo, right after the three penitent women have finished giving their input (it's located immediately before the brief, mini-solo for offstage soprano). Here, U.P. pretty much demands to be Faust's "teacher", as he's being blinded by the light of a "new" day (it's Goethe!). Banse launches the word "neue" (new) at a full fortissimo, then pulls back beautifully for the final word,"tag" (day). After that, Lisa Larsson lacks a certain ethereal quality in that offstage solo. Too much is often made of this solo in many reviews, as it's actually quite short in duration. However, it is one brief moment that's truly better on the Tilson Thomas Mahler 8 (great mandolin, too - if that matters).

Well, there you have it - that's the worst of it. But the rest is terrific. Part I is a knock-out through and through, and the end of Part II has to be heard to be believed.

Like Tilson-Thomas and Simon Rattle, Zinman does make a big accelerando in the final measures of Part I (Mahler tempers that accelerando with the word, "somewhat"). But as in Gerard Schwartz's recent and excellent effort from Seattle, you can hear ALL of the offstage brass parts as well. That may seem like a petty point, but it actually makes a big difference. In Part II, Zinman is a bit relaxed at times, but he does conjure sufficient intensity out of the two big orchestral outbursts that happen before the baritone solo. He also never loses sight of his main prize, which is the very end of symphony. I would describe his approach as relaxed (not slow) yet focused. As if that weren't enough, the finish to the "blicket auf" passage doesn't sound like an anti-climax for once. In other words, Zinman nails ALL of the big moments throughout this performance. It's also a really good sounding pipe organ that they have in the Zurich Tonhalle, just in case that matters to you (it does to me!)

Those who are collecting Zinman's mostly fine cycle, along with those who are just plain curious, can purchase this new Mahler 8 with confidence. For those of whom where the cast of soloists is an important issue in this work, I'd suggest sticking to Solti; Kubelik (best singing of all!); Sinopoli (great women); Maazel (very slow tempi, though); Chailly; Rattle; or Boulez. Bernstein's 1975 Mahler 8 from Vienna - captured on video by Untitel, and transferred to dvd by DG - isn't to be missed either. For such a huge, "feel good" work - the Beethoven's 9th of the Art Nouveau era - we've been remarkably lucky!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 11:33:46 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 05:41:31 PM »
I am listening to Part I. of the Zinman recording.

Awesome!! :o :D

The recording is fantastic with awful lot of organ, bells, and terrific brass (listen to the tuba!).

The soloists are OK and the choirs are very good.

It's on a slow side (24'34'') but doesn't sound dragged at all.

One thing I notice immediately is Zinman's uncanny sense of structure and flow of this complicated movement. It's very MUSICAL and helps keep the heavy traffic under control.

Will report more on the rest.

But it's mighty impressive so far.

John,
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:51:20 PM by John Kim »

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 06:48:59 PM »

Here's a question:

From all the numerous recordings I've heard of Mahler's 8th (especially in the last few years -- such as Nagano, Tilson-Thomas) which have been profoundly disappointing to me, I've found the Boulez Staatskapelle performance from last year very satisfying.

There is no Mahler symphony that (for me) has so consistently been a source of frustration and aggravation because of the way it's been performed. I guess that -- not unlike a big opera -- a really good performance of the M8 is, by definition, a perfect storm.

It's only my personal opinion of course, but I believe it's an extremely difficult symphony that even in the best hands can turn hysterical (Tennstedt -- who can be so intense in other Mahler symphonies) or pompous (Davies -- who can be so incredible in Berlioz).

That's why I'm always hesitant about new recordings. I've heard that the problem with Zinman are the soloists -- a HUGH problem with the 8th, of course.

So my question: Why is it worth it and how does it compare with Boulez?

Nathaniel

I am listening to Part I. of the Zinman recording.

Awesome!! :o :D

The recording is fantastic with awful lot of organ, bells, and terrific brass (listen to the tuba!).

The soloists are OK and the choirs are very good.

It's on a slow side (24'34'') but doesn't sound dragged at all.

One thing I notice immediately is Zinman's uncanny sense of structure and flow of this complicated movement. It's very MUSICAL and helps keep the heavy traffic under control.

Will report more on the rest.

But it's mighty impressive so far.

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 07:24:44 PM »
Nathaniel,

I too like the Boulez very much. The only letdown are the weak organ and somewhat underpowered ending in part II. It's odd because Part I kicks off with a mighty organ... ??? :-[.

Zinman is similar to Boulez in that he takes a very good care of the structure and keep the big picture clear and clean. Thus, in Part I. there are the beginning, the mid portion, the development, the recapitulation, and the ending, all played out distinctly and with clarity. You'll feel exactly where you're going from and to. It's an excellent conducting from that perspective. I think it's even better than the Boulez in this respect. Now, I'll try Part II. next.

John,

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 08:19:38 PM »


Have you had a chance to listen to the Sidney Ashkenazy broadcast?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rts2F85hnIo


Offline sperlsco

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Re: My Amazon review of Zinman Mahler 8 (f.y.i.)
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 09:27:11 PM »
I listened to the Zinman M8 over the course of the last couple of weekends.  I'd really like to listen to it in one sitting, but may not have that chance for a while.  If I had to compare it to another performance, I might say the Neumann/Czech PO one.  The performance tends to be very balanced from both a horizontal and vertical conducting standpoint.  The organ and massed choirs are very forward in the presentation of Part 1 -- which has its dividends.  However, the orchestra itself does not stand out (i.e. from a balance standpoint).  There are instances where I expect a solo instrument to come to the fore -- but instead it remains a part of the ensemble.  The offstage brass at the end of Part I are actually much more in your face than the onstage brass that had come before.  Although Zinman picks up the pace at the end of Part 1, it sounds much more natural than MTT (which sounded simply absurd). 

I really didn't have any problems with the solo singers.  ADG is not one of my favorite tenors, but he bothered me less here than on the MTT for some reason.  Banse is a bit heavy for my taste, but I think she sings very well and has excellent range.  The massed choirs are really good, and very forward in the mix.  In Part 2, I'd like Mahler's specialty instruments to stand out a good bit more.  I suppose that I've come to prefer the balancing of the recent Inbal/Tokyo MSO recording, in that the soloists are balanced way back and the orchestra very forward in the mix.  I'm not quite as big a fan of the ending of Part 2 as BG.  The organ and the pacing are excellent, but the tam-tams (which sound VERY large-sized and deep toned) are not struck nearly hard enough to make an impact.  Instead there are cymbal crashes alone. 

Overall, I enjoyed this performance but greatly prefer the recent ones from Inbal and Gergiev. 



Scott

 

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