Author Topic: DH hammers on Nott M9th  (Read 18971 times)

Offline John Kim

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DH hammers on Nott M9th
« on: May 11, 2010, 04:03:11 PM »
Believe it or not, here it goes:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12762

He and I must have VERY different ears on this one.

I find it utterly strange because I used to concur with most of his recommended recordings of this work, Lenny, Ozawa, Levine, and Ancerl.

Have my ears changed over the years? Or have his changed?

Wow....

John,
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 04:07:21 PM by John Kim »

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 08:27:39 PM »

Maybe someone mixmatched the two babies -- the Alan Gilbert and the Jonathan Nott (Mahler 9). Didn't the same website give a glowing review to the Gilbert? (Not sure, I don't follow these things regularily, so it may have been on another website).
Anyway, John, wow indeed.
Nathaniel 


Believe it or not, here it goes:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12762

He and I must have VERY different ears on this one.

I find it utterly strange because I used to concur with most of his recommended recordings of this work, Lenny, Ozawa, Levine, and Ancerl.

Have my ears changed over the years? Or have his changed?

Wow....

John,



O

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 09:21:45 PM »
It's all the more strange because most of the reviews of the recording I've read gave very good to excellent to rave reviews.

For instance, read the following two reviews posted on sa-cd.net (from the listeners):

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6043

John,

Offline alpsman

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 11:27:34 PM »
I suggest everyone who consider to look for a different not favorite review of Nott/M9 should read my posts from last August.
http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=950.msg8100#msg8100.


Offline alpsman

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2010, 11:30:07 PM »

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 11:36:18 PM »
alpsman,

Yep. We're equally divided on this one.

That's what opinions are all for, aren't they? :-\ ;D :-*

Cheers.

John,

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 11:56:16 PM »


I'm taking back (for now...) everything I've said about the Nott Mahler 9, because after looking further into it I realized that...I haven't actually listened to the commercial release but to a live broadcast! It's a concert from July 23, 09 with the Bamberger Symphoniker plus the Bayerische Staatsphilharmonie which took place at the Sala Gustav Mahler in the Tyrolean town of Dobbiaco (Italy).

I wouldn't regularly make such a booboo, but I've listened to too many Mahler 9th lately. Sorry for the confusion! I'm now of course obligated to listen to the commercial release.

Offline alpsman

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 02:01:16 AM »
Yes John,

opinions are different for each individual, and this is the way it must be. If someone is moved by a certain music making good for him, that is music about.

I only want to say that for the last 30 years, and especialy the last decade, we take Mahler performances for granted, and my experience from a lot of live performances( because this is the way we can judge justly), is that there are a lot of mediocre and downright bad performances out there. I attend two of those in the past months with such luminaries like Salonen and Eschenbach.
The spirit is not there, the idiomatic sound-world, the fin-de-siecle decadance....I think is the penalty of too much exposure for audiences and musicians.

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 03:40:45 AM »
When it comes to arts any review is subject to subjective opinions. I for one am very happy that I am not dealing with arts.

I deal with numbers and scientific facts where there are scarcely such ambiguities.

I mean,

1+2=3, NOT 4!!! ;D :D ;D

Cheers.

John,

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 02:16:56 PM »
Hi John.

Re the subjectivity thing. That's a truism. Obviously opinions are subjective as regards personal taste (whether you like something or not), but a well-written review is just as factual as your equation. Either the horns are clearly audible, or they are not. Either one tempo is quicker than another, or it is not. Either the score says one thing and the artist follows it, or he does not. In the same way, scientific research is subjective as regards choice and application of methodology and interpretation of any results that go beyond mere quantitative reporting. Furthermore, knowledge and experience also matter, just as you would probably prefer to be operated on by a trained surgeon rather than a beginner. The fact that everyone has opinions does not render all such opinions equally valid--what is equally valid is the right of everyone to have them and express them. But there are qualitative differences nevertheless.

One of the saddest things that has happened to the critical profession over the years has been the gradual degradation of professinal standards and ethics, to be replaced by a sort of amateur free-for-all simply because anyone can buy a CD and post an opinion. The Internet is peppered with "reviews" by soi-disant "critics," and fun though this may be for the participants, it has been a two-edged sword for the industry and the performing arts community. There is a difference between professional criticism and mere opinion. Honest feedback from respected authorities with a wider perspective on performance has the potential to be a good way of maintaining high standards of quality (never mind a useful tool for a public inundated with entertainment choices). Now, however, where every arts organization and artist has a PR team of some kind working for it, it's always possible to find some inept "critic" enthusing about every performance ever issued, and it's obviously advantageous, PR-wise, to quote the good ones, ignore the bad ones, and to insist that "it's all just opinion." Well, my friend, it's not. Or should I say, it's NOTT!  ;D

Best,

Dave H

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 04:44:05 PM »

Dave, I still haven't listened to the commercial Nott release, but the broadcast I mentioned was superb. I've now read your Gilbert review as well as the Norrington review. Your Gilbert arguments are just not convincing. On the other hand, I agree with you on Norrington and your Norrington comments are right on, funny and convincing. It's a hit or miss and it's all about insticts and articulating a good argument. So I think the analogy of a trained surgeon doesn't apply. Sometimes a novice with excellent instincts and good arguments has much more to say than a seasoned critic. Often critics with experience are too set in their ways. Often they have agendas or expectations or preferences etc. Of course two critics almost always disagree anyway. But if the instincts are sharp and the arguments convincing, it's a good read (for me), whether I agree or disagree.


Hi John.

Re the subjectivity thing. That's a truism. Obviously opinions are subjective as regards personal taste (whether you like something or not), but a well-written review is just as factual as your equation. Either the horns are clearly audible, or they are not. Either one tempo is quicker than another, or it is not. Either the score says one thing and the artist follows it, or he does not. In the same way, scientific research is subjective as regards choice and application of methodology and interpretation of any results that go beyond mere quantitative reporting. Furthermore, knowledge and experience also matter, just as you would probably prefer to be operated on by a trained surgeon rather than a beginner. The fact that everyone has opinions does not render all such opinions equally valid--what is equally valid is the right of everyone to have them and express them. But there are qualitative differences nevertheless.

One of the saddest things that has happened to the critical profession over the years has been the gradual degradation of professinal standards and ethics, to be replaced by a sort of amateur free-for-all simply because anyone can buy a CD and post an opinion. The Internet is peppered with "reviews" by soi-disant "critics," and fun though this may be for the participants, it has been a two-edged sword for the industry and the performing arts community. There is a difference between professional criticism and mere opinion. Honest feedback from respected authorities with a wider perspective on performance has the potential to be a good way of maintaining high standards of quality (never mind a useful tool for a public inundated with entertainment choices). Now, however, where every arts organization and artist has a PR team of some kind working for it, it's always possible to find some inept "critic" enthusing about every performance ever issued, and it's obviously advantageous, PR-wise, to quote the good ones, ignore the bad ones, and to insist that "it's all just opinion." Well, my friend, it's not. Or should I say, it's NOTT!  ;D

Best,

Dave H

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 04:56:46 PM »
Dave,

Well said indeed.

Your points are all valid and well taken.

Bertrand Russell once wrote in his "Conquest of Happiness" something like (excuse me for not remembering the exact phrase),

"When public don't understand a painting that's displayed at an art museum, they normally say, 'this piece is bad because I can't understand it'. On the other hand, when they don't understand the theory of relativity they'll think it's because they are ignorant."

It's precisely in this context that I said I am happy that I am not dealing with the arts that are always subjected to certain degree of subjective opinions and ambiguities. You are right on the science; yes, even it is subjective. But it is much less so and such scientific subjectiveness is only known to the scientists, not the general public.

You know, even though the critics have dismissed most of Dohnanyi's Mahler I bet there are still folks out there who adore his Mahler recordings for reasons that cannot be explained rationally. Such is the nature of arts, isn't it?

Anyway, the Nott M9th is the ONLY second M9th recording that I cannot agree with you on (The live Karajan is the the other one). So, we both agree more than 80% on Mahler Ninth recordings :D ;).

Regards,

John,

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 05:59:01 PM »
Nathaniel and John:

First, John, we don't have to agree about anything (though of course I'm glad that we like some of the same performances--it's always nice to be in the company of good people!). Let's not confuse what people agree about with what a performance does, and how accurately it is described in the context of a review. One of the things that differentiates critics from normal people (and maybe that's not a good thing!) is the fact that critics write criticism, while everyone else writes autobiography. A review should not just be about whether a performance is good or bad, or whether the critic likes it or not (although that is the ultimate judgment to which it usually leads)--it is about what the composer requires, what the performers do, and how this version compares to others. As you very correctly point out, whether I like something or not is no more useful than whether anyone likes anything--it is mere personal preference. What matters is what we might call the "non-subjective" basis that determines that preference. Anyway, the fact that science has many subjective elements not known to the general public I find even scarier than those things that ARE known to be subjective by the general public. Don't you?

In any case, in 25 years of writing professional criticism, when someone dislikes one of my reviews then 99% of the time the reason isn't because there's something wrong with the review as criticism, it is almost invariably because the person disagrees with my ultimate liking or disliking of the performance. And they get pissed that a supposed authority does not support their own personal taste. That's the gist of it, because at heart most people aren't content with just enjoying what they enjoy. They want to be RIGHT, and they want their viewpoint validated by others.

Nathaniel: Of course there are amateurs who may have better insights or greater knowledge about specific pieces than some professionals, that doesn't make them better critics. It just means they have particular knowledge which could be useful in a conversation about particular works. Having a lot of such people in one place (like in this group) can very well produce excellent and informative results. But your contention that the Gilbert review is "unconvincing" won't wash. It didn't convince YOU because you didn't like the performance. But that is an entirely different question from whether or not that article accurately describes those aspects of the performance that determined my decision to recommend it. If you find those aspects unimportant, or feel that there are others not discussed that are more important, that's your perogative, but you still have much of the essential information you need to make that determination from reading the review.

Finally, I have to note that you did not even know which performance of the Nott Mahler 9 you had heard, and yet this did not stop you from weighing in on the merits of the version you had NOT heard with complete certainty and authority. To your credit, you had the consideration and conscience to double check and explain your initial error. However, if one of my writers did that, they would be out the door faster than the end of the Rondo: Burleske. That is just one example of what professionalism means (at its most basic level). How would you feel knowing that on the basis of hearing that live performance, which may well be every bit as good as you say, a bunch of people ran out and bought the commercial release, which sucks, because you got the two confused? In your world that's an innocent mistake. In mine, it's a crime, and rightly so.

Best,

Dave H

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 09:11:27 PM »


Dave -- I actaully agree with you that it's a crime to mix up a live concert with a commercial release and that's why -- as soon as I realized it -- I posted my error. So I guess I should count my blessings (that I'm not -- or nott -- working for you). On the other hand, if you were working for me, I would probably keep you at least for a while, BUT!! -- at the same time -- make darn sure I get another reviewer to ALSO cover the Gielen cycle for example. Because -- now that I've done my homework and checked out your 10/10's -- giving the Gielen cycle 10/10 is in my book kinda a major crime too, so I'd at least get another reviewer to balance off that crime. I'd do the same for the Barenboim M7 and Eschenbach M6 as well as Nagano M8. And of course the Gilbert M9.

I should add that all the above (as well as the previous posts) are said with fun and humor and on the light side. I generally do like reading your reviews and unlike most reviewers, I generally actually agree with you. I even like your nasty reviews (when they're to the point, not just for nastiness sake). It's also good to have you here in a dialogue.
All the best and keep up the good work, Nathaniel

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH hammers on Nott M9th
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 01:53:01 AM »
I think there's a whole 'nother side to these kinds of disagreements. Let's face it, when it comes to Mahler, we live in age where we're now completely spoiled for choices. That just wasn't the case even 25 years ago (when it comes to Mahler). Obviously, if the Nott Mahler 9 had come out in the late '70s or early '80s, it would be right up there against the best of them (and to John and Nathaniel, it still is, I imagine). Therefore, it's pretty darn good in the absolute sense. It's only in the comparative sense that it doesn't fully hold water. For me, it leaves me kind of shrugging my shoulders: it's not bad; it just doesn't bowl me over as some of my favorite ones do. For all the supposed faults in minor details that the "live" Karajan one allegedly possesses, it's still among an elite few that keep up just an outrageous level of intensity from start to finish - that what I like about it. As I've said numerous times, for me, many performances of Mahler 9 sound as they should they have just stopped after the first movement. I wouldn't say that about the Nott performance, but I really don't like it as much a number of others. I don't think the somewhat dull Tudor sound helps either. But if we were back in 1978, I'd probably be jumping all up and down about it.

 

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