Author Topic: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6  (Read 20187 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« on: May 27, 2010, 05:09:52 PM »
These are opinions that I strongly agree with, but I wouldn't expect that everybody would. This is a PDF file, so it might take a half-minute or minute to load.

http://www.classicstoday.com/features/ClassicsToday-Mahler6Score.pdf

Offline Leo K

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 09:22:53 PM »
Excellant article!  I also mostly concur with the opinions of this article. Thanks for the heads up.


--Todd

Offline Leo K

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 11:21:14 PM »
It's really a shame to hear of the failure of this edition.  The 6th Symphony really deserves an objective edition focused on the music in all it's forms, with all performance practices considered and presented equally.


--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 12:32:31 AM »
When you read the last couple of paragraphs, you can see that David's main concern is that a new generation of conductors will simply accept the A/S argument at face value, without thinking it through for themselves. But as for the nuts & bolts of the work, it doesn't seem that he has much problem with any of it. David pointed out that the timpani part could have be simplified for just one player, most of the time. But that's not a huge deal: if you're going to have a second timpanist, you may as well give them a few extra notes to play for themselves. My own gut feeling is that professional conductors will probably continue to decide for themselves on the movement order, based on their own musical instincts. Afterall, we've had something close to forty years of performance practice that was almost entirely S/A.

Offline Leo K

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 01:30:36 AM »
When you read the last couple of paragraphs, you can see that David's main concern is that a new generation of conductors will simply accept the A/S argument at face value...


Afterall, we've had something close to forty years of performance practice that was almost entirely S/A.


Perhaps nothing much will change even with this new edition...perhaps forty years of S/A won't go away soon.  

--Todd

Offline Dave H

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 02:23:15 AM »
Hi guys. Thanks for taking the time to read the article. I have two concerns about this edition:

1. Back in 1963, when Erwin Ratz issued the first Critical Edition, Mahler conductors were still "specialists." Alma was still alive, and so were Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer, and other artists who actually had known him (not to mention musicians who had played under him). To play Mahler required a real identification with and knowledge of the idiom, and so the rapidity with which the S/A order was adopted meant something significant musically. Today, everyone plays Mahler. It's expected, popular, orchestras know it, and it quite simply takes less thought and effort to generate at least an accurate performance, if not a great one. The A/S order operating under the guise of a new "Critical Edition" offers a "lazy man's" way to do something different, but at the same time validate the interpretive choice because it comes with supposedly scholarly sanction. It's the same purely professional, career-defining need to do something "new" in old, popular music, coupled with a fear of truly independent choices (hence the need to look for scholarly validation) that fuels the "authentic performance" movement, and so many of today's supposed critical editions.

2. Further to this last observation, combine the ubiquity and, well, thoughtlessness of Mahler performance today with the whole (what I consider largely false) scholarly apparatus at work cranking out new editions, exaggerating the importance of trivial facts, and, at its worst, re-writing history to justify interpretive choices (Norrington, etc), and the result is not encouraging. There is an unholy alliance at work of marginally talented performers, second-rate scholars looking to keep employed essentially doing nothing but rechecking manuscripts to find some hook to hang a new edition on, and music publishers who have a real economic incentive to find ways of keeping public domain works in print and under copyright. None of this has anything to do with preserving the musical integrity of the work of art. It's entirely self-serving.

I know this may sound bleak, but having been in this business for decades, and as a professionally trained historian, I am horrified not just at the low standards of scholarship (hell, common sense) that these editions represent, but also the really stunning lack of ethics, integrity, and above all, basic musicality. And I consider myself an optimist. Music, and Mahler, will survive despite all of this nonsense, but it will be much more fun for us as listeners who care if we call it now for what it is, and put some of these jokers out of business sooner rather than later.

Best,

Dave H

Offline Leo K

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 03:15:24 AM »
Mr. Hurwitz,

I was also wondering about the various Charles Ives Critical Editions, like the 3rd or 4th Symphony...are they doing right by Ives?  Or are these editions in any way problematic?  I have the Jonathan Elkus Critical Edition of Ives' 2nd Symphony and it appears to be done well.


--Todd

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 04:38:50 AM »
Thanks for posting the Horowitz article. I agree with its premise, but it feels (to me) like trying to kill an ant with an elephant. That's really all I have to say about the subject of the SA/AS-inner-movements-order in Mahler 6th symphony. Only my opinion of course. Good night.

Offline brunumb

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 06:48:07 AM »
I haven't been able to download the ClassicsToday article yet, but the following one offers interesting perspectives on M6 :

Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony
by Jeffrey Gantz

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm

Offline Zoltan

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 11:01:10 AM »
While other arguments were known to me, what I found new and informative in reading Dave's article was the limited number of performances of the Sixth in Mahler's lifetime to make up his mind what he exactly wanted to say (in a meta-programmatic sense) in this, for the audience, difficult symphony, which at first listening overwhelms even modern audiences -- at least it was for me. Also, the lack of time (or opportunity) to make corrections to the published score after having performed the symphony in a limited number of concerts.

Which indeed leaves me to conclude that every performance will have to make its own decision on the order of movements, which can actually be turned into a fascinating opportunity for audiences if the dilemma is presented correctly in the program notes.

As an IGMG member I say, that this should have been noted in the critical edition without prejudice and an agenda, *scholarly*, since it's not about two layman opinions, but about two sides with equal scientific arguments.

Offline Dave H

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 11:23:53 AM »
Zoltan:

I think you have it exactly right. Every edition needs to choose a methodology. If the IGMG wants to take the position that they will go with Mahler's last documented act in everything that they publish, they have the right to do that, but they do not have any basis to suggest, without taking full stock of the circumstances and all other evidence to the contrary, that this represents Mahler's own "final" and "unequivocal" intention. That is ridiculous, and misleading,and totally contrary to everything we know about what Mahler himself said and did in performance of his own music (and everyone else's!).

Dave H

Offline GL

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 01:48:26 PM »
I agree completely with Mr. Hurwitz and I endorse warmly his essay and his post on this forum in their entirety. I know academics, I try to advance my studies in music history and, in particular, on Mahler with passion and discipline, trying to keep a mind as open as possible. The shockingly amateurish handling of the Sixth by those who should be the custodians of its text embitters and strikes me particularly because the Sixth is one of the symphonies I love most (not just among those of Mahler's), a symphony that I never stopped to investigate, since first meeting it in November 1989.

I would just add a few comments and clarifications to the words of Mr. Hurwitz.

When he writes:

"Whether in adopting a patently ridiculous “definitive” reading of the opening of the First Symphony’s Funeral March, in which we are told that the double bass solo doesn’t really mean “solo” at all, or in the discussion of the Sixth’s Scherzo/Andante controversy, Kubik reveals himself as a singularly unsympathetic and uncomprehending advocate of Mahler’s music, one (it sometimes seems) more interested in scoring points at the expense of his predecessors at the nternationale Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft Wien than in offering interpreters the tools that they need to make intelligent and informed performance decisions."

he, at the same time, is right and wrong. He is wrong because Mr. Kubik writes:

[Ratz's successor] "K. H. Fuessl immediately had to correct some of the early editions and provide rather more extensive reports [...]. At first Fuessl called in other editors [...]. However, assigning the new edition of the First Symphony to Sander Wilkens unfortunately proved to be a mistake. His confused arguments in support of the claim that the famous double-bass solo at the beginning of the third movement was a solo of the whoel group rather than for a single player contradicted the sources and surviving reports of performances under Mahler's direction, and exposed the Critical Edition to ridicule from all Mahler researches."

(R. Kubik. The history of the International Gustav Mahler Society. The Cambridge companion to Mahler, edited by J. Barham, Cambridge university press, 2007, p. 224)

Well Said and correctly. I Wonder Why Mr. Kubik has not amended the incorrect edition (it would have been sufficient to add a warning, printed on a slip of paper to be included in the score, as it had been done in the penultimate edition of the Sixth about the order of movements).

Nevertheless, Mr. Hurwitz is right, because, what Kubik wrote shows his will of  trashing his predecessor, as it "is a popular sport in the world of academia".

......................................................

Mr. Hurwitz writes:

"We can only be thankful that the editorial team at the Internationale Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft Wien hasn't (yet) signed on to the" authenticity "nonsense in this regard" coming from the likes of Roger Norrington and His fellow cultists. "

That 'yet' added in brackets seems really appropriate. I do not know how long we can consider ourselves grateful to Mr. Kubik and to IGMG since he has already wrote as follows:


"It seems that Mahler did not have a very high regard for that kind of continuous legato and vibrato playing almost universally practised today-2a liquefied pulp without substance or form" as he once remarked to Natalie Bauer Lechner-but favoured instead a short range, declamatory style of "baroque" articulation. The instruction "vibrato" in bar 86 of the first violin part in the Adagietto indicates that the strings of the orchestra normally played without vibrato [Oh my God!]."

(R. Kubik. Mahler's revisions and performance practice. Perspective on Gustav Mahler, edited by J. Barham, Ashgate, 2005, p. 404)

When, in early May, I visited the exposition "Mahler and Vienna" at the Lobkowitz Palace in Vienna, I was horrified to hear Norrington's vibrato-less Adagietto resounding in one of the rooms.

So, very bad and depressing signs from the vibrato-front.

................................

Two other arguments in favor of the Scherzo / Andante order:

The Andante ends in Eb (all plays pp / ppp). The Finale starts with eight bars in C minor (apart cellos (sf, pizzicato), Harps (ff) and clarinettes (f) The Others plays p / pp). Who has a perceptive ear for music has the impression that the Final arises (like a nightmare? Like awakening from a dream?) from the quiet waters of the Andante's last bars. During the Final C minor will have the structural importance announced by the first 8 bars, nevertheless, at first, it is difficult to sense them logical if they are compressed between the A minor of the Scherzo's last bars and the A minor of the Finale's ninth bar.

Guido Adler devoted a monograph to his close friend, written after Mahler's death and published in Leipzig and Vienna by Universal Edition in 1916. At p. 52 of the book that includes the monograph currently (E. R. Reilly. Gustav Mahler and Guido Adler. Records of a friendship. Cambridge University Press, 1982), Adler twice referes to the Scherzo as the second movement of the Sixth.

.......................................

I'd like to look on the bright side of all these disputes: Mahler has become so popular that everyone wants to say his opinion and to link his name to him. And do not forget that there are young performers such as Marc Albrecht not bend to the  absurd dictates of IGMG.

Mahler will survive everyone, as he survived the Viennese critics and even Nazism. The time will do justice and clean all the garbage.

Luca

(a rather disappointed member of IGMG)

Offline Dave H

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 02:47:14 PM »
Dear Luca:

Thank you very much for your insightful comments and clarifications! I did know (unfortuntately) about Kubik and the vibrato business (I have "Perspectives on Mahler"). For obvious reasons I didn't want to get too involved in that controversy in discussing movement order in Mahler's Sixth. I was thinking more that Kubik does not make an issue of it in the "performance practice" section of the new Critical Edition. His comment on the Adagietto to the effect that the single "vibrato" indication in measure 86 means that "the strings of the orchestra normally played without vibrato" is pretty scary, and terrifyingly ignorant.

Best regards,

Dave H

Offline Dave H

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 09:36:42 PM »
I hope you'll all forgive me, but I just couldn't resist adding a further note to Luca's very interesting comments. He quotes Kubik stating as follows: "It seems that Mahler did not have a very high regard for that kind of continuous legato and vibrato playing almost universally practised today- "a liquefied pulp without substance or form" as he once remarked to Natalie Bauer Lechner-but favoured instead a short range, declamatory style of "baroque" articulation."

Let us look at this statement more closely to see the level on which so much of today's scholarship, and Kubik's in particular, operates, because this makes such a fine example. Here is the entire passage in question from Bauer-Lechner (in Newlin's translation):

"At the Philharmonic concert, we heard a bad performance of the 'Pastoral' Symphony. Mahler was driven to despair by it, for he felt the lack of a 'sustained melodic line.' When I asked him what he meant by this, he explained: 'The melodic and rhythmic passages which make up the whole must be clearly shaped at all times. Instead of that, these mechanics pound it into a sort of mush without substance or form, in which there is so little of Beethoven that I wonder how it ever became popular in such a garbled fashion." (p. 45)

Now, just how screwed up is Kubik's characterization of the few words that he quotes out of context? Let us count the ways:

1. Mahler is discussing a specific performance that he witnessed, in other words, a one-time event. He is not generalizing about performance practice in his era, but Kubik treats his remarks as though he is. This violates one of the basic rules of using historical material: Never turn a specific, limited observation into a blanket generalization about a whole period without overwhelming justification and tons of supporting evidence. This is "History 101"--really elementary stuff.

2. Mahler NEVER mentions vibrato.

3. In fact, Mahler clearly FAVORS a sustained legato line, just the opposite of what Kubik maintains (and thus Mahler likely favors vibrato as well, which is advocated on sustained notes in melodic passages by even the most conservative treatises dating back literally centuries). In fact we know that Mahler encouraged abundant vibrato from the recorded testimony of those who actually played under him. What Mahler is really talking about, if you read the entire passage, is the need for clarity of rhythm, phrasing, and articulation in passages of different kind. At no point in history, not now, not then, would anyone maintain that all such passages, whether melodic or rhythmic, should be played with exactly the same kind of continuous legato and vibrato. The very idea is nonsense (as well as technically impossible, even if you wanted to do it).

4. Kubik is using Mahler's remarks on a performance that he witnessed in is own day to make a categorical statement about what Mahler's attitude would have been to a theoretical modern performance practice, which Mahler could NOT have witnessed (obviously). In other words, this is simply hot air--worthless, unsupported speculation.

5. Need I point out that Kubik's blanket generalization about contemporary performance practice is no more accurate than his misleading characterization of Mahler's actual words? Was the approach to vibrato and legato exactly the same in Beethoven's Sixth as played by, say, George Szell and Eugene Ormandy (never mind Nikolaus Harnoncourt, the king of oily legato phrasing)?

6. Finally and most stupidly, if what Mahler witnessed and criticized actually was both typical and also similar to the "modern practice," as Kubik seems to suggest, then it only proves that orchestras in Mahler's day played in a manner which is essentially indistinguishable from our own. How then can Kubik use this as evidence that orchestras in Mahler's own day did NOT play as they do today with respect to vibrato (or anything else)? Could his reasoning possibly be more confused and illogical?

Hard to believe that this is what passes for scholarship, and that this is the guy in charge of Mahler's legacy. Heaven help us! One thing I have learned, both in researching the vibrato question as well as many other issues: take any quotation or citation, go back to the original source, and chances are you will see that the source is either being quoted out of context or used in an intentionally misleading fashion--often to the point where the original source is made to say the opposite of what is clearly means. Sometimes in historical circles this is called "revisionism," but among normal people we call it "lying," and "fraud," and that is how it surely deserves to be treated. This happens with such frequency that I begin to wonder if meaningful musical scholarship of any kind is even possible any more on very many subjects, because there simply cannot be communication of meaningful information without at least some basic agreement on what constitutes reality. If, for example, Kubik can say that the one bar of specifially notated vibrato in the Adagietto means that string sections never used it anywhere else, and really mean it, then he's simply not operating from a shared understanding of what notation means, what the sources say, or what the Western musical tradition for the past several centuries has been.

Best regards,

Dave H

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 12:35:51 AM by Dave H »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 04:47:56 AM »
From a purely musical standpoint, I think this key relationship of Eb (andante moderato) to C (beginning of finale) to A-minor (tuba solo, several bars in) is a very compelling argument. I'm not sure that an E-natural gets sounded at the start of the finale, but if it does, it would create half-step tension between itself and the Eb of the slow movement's final chord. There's also a "minor"-ish sounding implication, as the tonal area of C sounds a minor third lower than the tonic Eb of the previous chord. In other words, the entire symphony sounds as they it has shifted down a minor third. When the intro. finally settles into the key of A-minor (tuba solo), that's an inverted minor third from the Eb. Even more stressful, the fifth degree of A-minor, "E-natural", sounds a half-step apart from the memory of Eb ("boss, the plane, the plane!").

All this means one thing: the start of the finale sounds far more alien - more like it's coming out of left field - when it's following that calm Eb major resolution at the end of the slow movement.

Some claim that the problem of following the first movement with the scherzo, is that the scherzo makes the symphony sound as though it's starting over again. But in a way, that's sort of the point, as the first movement and scherzo can combine for a unified "Part I" in one's mind. Also, those same critics should notice that the end of the scherzo behaves very much like the end of the finale (without the final A-minor outburst at the end, obviously). Therefore, that's one of the major problems with A/S order: the end of the scherzo has the same type of A-minor dissolution as the end of the finale (but again, without that loud A-minor explosion at the very end).

All that said, I would still rather hear a really great performance of M6 in A/S - meaning, that the performance of the finale would have to be great - than to hear a bad or so/so one in S/A order. In Mahler 6, the finale carries so much weight, and is truly a symphony within a symphony. But performing Mahler 6 in S/A means that the conductor has two very important responsibilities.

One, when performing in S/A order, the conductor can't just begin the scherzo at any old tempo. He/she has to either relate the scherzo to the very start of the symphony (march tempo), or take the scherzo at pretty much same tempo as the end of the first movement. They simply can not grasp any old tempo out of the air!  Second, they can not take the Andante Moderato as an adagio - it simply doesn't work. If one insists on taking the andante as a Brucknerian adagio, then you may as well place it second. It's simply too draining, and too out-of-context, to place a long, stretched out Adagio in the third movement position. Instead, perform it the way Mahler wrote it: andante moderato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x_QbVDlLbI

.    .     .     just imagine it in minor instead of major.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 05:06:38 AM by barry guerrero »

 

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