Mahler 7

[Leo K]

"The scherzo, on the other hand, has a strange sense of humor and I wonder if the music is ironic or really projecting fear"

I'd say both. With the scherzo, things are truly going bump in the night, but the whole thing turns humorous and light hearted towards the end, beginning with that strange, carnival sounding tune in the low brass toward located a few minutes before the end of it. At that point, the whole symphony shifts from primarily darkness, to primarily light. In a sense, the scherzo is a microcosm or metaphor for the entire symphony. I'm convinced that Bartok must have modeled his "Concerto For Orchestra" on Mahler's most developed, five movement, arch form symphony.

This is great, thanks for this description of the Scherzo...gives me more to listen for!  



By the way, I'm listening to the Kondrashin/RCO/Tahra at work and I believe his M7 is my top M7 at this point.  It really is exciting and excellant at presenting the exciting twists and turns of the score!

[Leo K]

Happened to see the Zinman M7 at Borders this afternoon and picked it up.  I really loved the performance on first hearing!  The sonics were better than anticipated and the performance had a nice flow.  I need to hear it more before I get into details.


--Todd

[John Kim]

Happened to see the Zinman M7 at Borders this afternoon and picked it up.  I really loved the performance on first hearing!  The sonics were better than anticipated and the performance had a nice flow.  I need to hear it more before I get into details.


--Todd

Yes, but I think overall Zinman's M7th is NOT as successful as his 6th.

Above all, it SOMEWHAT lacks character and is a little too uneventful.

John,

[John Kim]

Overall, my greatest M7ths remain,

1) Lenny/NYPO/Sony
2) Lenny/NYPO/DG
3) Kobayashi/CPO/Canyon
4) Gielen/SWO/Interchord

and honorable mentions go to: Schwarz, Jansons (OPO), MTT(LSO), Inbal(FRSO), Barenboim(SB)

John,

[Leo K]

Jon, I thought there was plenty of excitement in Zinman's M7, I think I enjoyed it as much as his M6 after the first hearing.  The Finale provides a lot of punch with great sonics.  The first movement is full of beauty.  I can understand the criticisms regarding his moderation in the first and last movements, but my first impression feels Zinman's plan works.


At the moment, my top M7 list is:

1. Kondrashin
2. Schwarz
3. Barenboim
4. Lenny/NYPO
5. Zinman

[John Kim]

Todd,

I will definitely try the Zinman again in the next couple of days. But my initial impression was as what I described (I am sure Barry agrees on this too).

I just feel that Lenny owned this piece.

His uncanny treatment of the middle movts. alone puts a unique stamp on his recording (Sony or DG).

There was a pirate recording of Lenny's concert with NYPO from the mid 80's (NOT the same as the DG recording). I used to own it but the CDR got deteriorated over the years, thus I am unable to to listen anymore. That was the greatest Lenny-conducted M7th ever. Period. Great balance, perfect tempo with all the Lennian neurosis and megalomaniac gestures intact and stamped all over the place.

John,

[GL]

Fans of the Seventh should consider the Kubelik/New York Philharmonic version. This interpretation contrasts with his earlier two (one, in studio, on DG, and one, live, on Audite, both very consistent, both with BRO, even if the Audite's set sound is not satisfactory), witnessing a change of concept of the work by Kubelik. It seems he is narrating the story of the travel through the night depicted in magical sounds by Mahler (Dear Barry, if you consider the Seventh as "a sort of Mahlerian travel log too", you should read D. Mitchell's article "Mahler on the move: his Seventh Symphony"-you can find it on "Discovering Mahler, writings on Mahler, 1955-2005", Boydell & Brewer). 

Timings are on the slow side, but we can't put the question simply in terms of "slow" and "fast", because it depends always on what happens within these spaces of time. Perceving slow as slow and fast as fast means that phrasing, fluctations of tempos, transitions, attention to dynamics and to overall shape and details etc.. failed to make feel us the choice of tempos perfectly logical and meaningful.

Luca

[barry guerrero]

I know the Kubelik/N.Y. one, and I agree that it's very good. There is, however, one technical point that bugs me a bit: Kubelik has the tambourine part played on a military side-drum (like a snare drum with the snares switched off). But beyond that small point; yes, it's very good.

B.

[GL]

Barry,

when I hear details such the one you have mentioned, I always suspect it has to do with critical/uncritical/pre-critical/or corrupted editions. Consider, for example, bars 782/783 of M5 Finale in the Jansons/Concertgebouw recording: timpanist thunders a ff B flat roll (dim. to pp in bar 783) that is present only in the Peters/Leipzig edition of 1904 (while I don't know if it is still present in the 1963 edition , I'm sure these two bars are not present in 1989 and 2005 editions). Did someone, at the Concertgebouw, forget to make the correction? This is a very curious case, because the same Jansons, in his BRO recording follows the last critical edition even in this detail.

Luca

P.S.

Sorry, but among the Sevenths which worth to hear and not yet mentioned in this thread, I have forgotten the Abravanel/Utah Symphony. Ok, today it can't be considered "top choice" and it's not at the same level of his Fourth (a reference recording of the work), nevertheless it has its moments.

[Zoltan]

So, I'll allow you to call me crazy, but my problem with Mahler's 7th is, that I feel that I can't breath normally while listening to the first movement. It's not only the mood that is creepy, it might be the orchestration that sounds so muffeld and well, I get this suffocating feeling.

Very strange ...

[barry guerrero]

"it might be the orchestration that sounds so muffeld"

Interesting. That might be another argument for NOT taking the first movement too fast (as it so often times is taken). The orchestration IS quite dense. But more to the point, the harmony is quite rich, with very rapid chord changes. In addition, it's contrapuntally rich and dense as well. I just think that the listener needs a bit more time for all that harmonically rich polyphony (numerous simultaneous voices) to sink in.

[Leo K]

Speaking of the first movement, I was just listening to the Zinman M7 again this afternoon, and have to say the first movement is paced beautifully...he really makes it coherent!  The tempo is right on! 

--Todd

[mahler09]

I haven't heard the Zinman version yet.  How do you think it compares to Bernstein or Chailly?

[Russ Smiley]

I previously owned the Chailly but not the Bernsteins.  The Zinman is across the board faster than either.  Zinman's timings are akin to Abbado/BPO, Leaper/OFdGC, and Bertini/Köln, three versions I also like very much.  Whatever the sound quality, Chailly's was much too slow for my liking in the first and last movements.  I've been curious to hear the DGG/NYPO, but the long inner movement timings make me cautious.

Zinman      Tonhalle Orchestra Zürich           22.01   15.83   10.20   12.37   18.12   78.53
Bernstein   New York Philharmonic                21.65   17.08   10.52   14.70   18.35   82.30
Chailly       Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra   24.85   16.20   10.38   13.47   19.32   84.22

[Leo K]

I haven't heard the Zinman version yet.  How do you think it compares to Bernstein or Chailly?

I haven't heard the Chailly...but in comparing Zinman to Bernstein I have to say Lenny's is hard to beat in terms of drama, color and forward motion.  ON the other hand, Zinman provides a cooler look into this score not heard in Lenny's account.  By "cooler" I mean Zinman plays the M7 straight (but not boring). Because of this the spooky parts and romantic parts suddenly jump out you, surprising you and providing contrast with the straightforward tempos that serve to highlight the details of the score and harmonic progression. AND the sonics are among the most impressive for M7 on SACD.  I'm glad to have these two different approaches on hand.

--Todd