Mahler at Tanglewood

[barry guerrero]

"Barry - I'm not sure if you are an Ives fan or not, but you should hear MTT's Ives 4 with Chicago on Sony sometime."

Got it. MTT is excellent with Ives, and I saw him give a very good Ives 4th with the SFSO. His DVD on the Ives "Holiday Symphony" is terrific! THAT'S the sort of thing that the SFSO should be promoting through MTT, and not just cramming constant repeats of Mahler down everybody's throat. But he's surrounded by a publicity machine that keeps telling him that he's the greatest thing since Bernstein, so he keeps coming up with new and ever more bizarre ways of interpreting Mahler - most of it too mannered and fussy sounding by half.

[Romy The Cat]

Look, I do not particularly strive to make my judgment about MTT . The story about MTT is well-known but this story is absolutely irrelevant o the subject of Mahler in Tanglewood. What MTT demonstrated in Tanglewood was very positive event, in a way unique event and it did expend my mind how Mahler might be played. Do I care how big MTT’s ego or how horrible he with Scriabin’s poems? I do not think I care.

I do not buy MTT generally. Over the duration of last 1-2 years I hear a few MTT performances.  It was B3 – a phenomenal, one of the greatest I heard, MMT own Urban Legend – very pleasant piece in my view, Shostakovich 5 – that was pure crap, Strauss’ Heldenleben – very good and solid performances. All together the ration of hit and miss is a typical for a high caliber conductor.  Is MTT such a reactionary figure that needs to be removed? I do not know, I do not go to his live weekly concerts. Even if he so bad as you Barry says then it still does not affect my very positive feeling about his showing in Tanglewood with M2.

James Levine?  It is hard to say, I like him as a conductor but I am a vocal supporter of a position that he is not too effective musical director in Boston, though the reasons are self-explanatory. There is another point – who is instead? There is no one out there available. All interesting conductors are with own orchestras. BTW, the Levine’s assistant conductor Shi-Yeon Sung look very pleasant. Not that she might step in the big shoe but very promising talented lady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwc3e48nzZQ&feature=related

I hear her a few times and I like her.

Rgs. Romy the Cat

[barry guerrero]

"Even if he so bad as you Barry says then it still does not affect my very positive feeling about his showing in Tanglewood with M2"

Nor should it. But I also made the effort to frame my comments within a music based context. The fact that MTT is surrounded by a publicity machine that tells him that he simply can't do any wrong, isn't his own fault. But it's a problem - a musical problem - none the less. I'm sure if James Levine came and conducted "Daphnis & Chloe" or A. Berg's "Three Pieces For Orch." with the SFSO, I'd be quite pleased with that as well. Anyway, Romy, you can bark at me all you want, but the copy of the radio broadcast from Tangelwood is - for me - a "been there/done that" situation.

[Romy The Cat]

Anyway, Romy, you can bark at me all you want….

Hm, “bark at you”? This is a very strange reaction, to say at least. If you have the same validity of perception in Mahler then the case is cleared.

The Cat

[barry guerrero]

I'll keep the case open for you, don't worry.

[chalkpie]

"Barry - I'm not sure if you are an Ives fan or not, but you should hear MTT's Ives 4 with Chicago on Sony sometime."

Got it. MTT is excellent with Ives, and I saw him give a very good Ives 4th with the SFSO. His DVD on the Ives "Holiday Symphony" is terrific! THAT'S the sort of thing that the SFSO should be promoting through MTT, and not just cramming constant repeats of Mahler down everybody's throat.

Good man. You get one bonus point for that.

Yes, the Holidays doc with MTT was wonderful - everybody on this list should see it, regardless if they think they like Ives or not. MTT's Holidays on Sony is also incredible and THE definitive version to my ears (and many Ives geeks).

And maybe you have answered my question by your response with MTT doing Mahler, and I'm sure I risk certain tar-and-feathering for saying this on a Mahler Board, but.......

Don't we have enough versions of Mahler symphs to last us a while longer at this point? Not just MTT, but anybody and everybody? Should conductors be exploring lesser known/recorded composers?

[Romy The Cat]

I'll keep the case open for you, don't worry.

Barry, I am very glad that you have the recording; you might learn something when you get wiser and discover what is important in a musical performance.

[barry guerrero]

OK Romy, come to Ca. and teach me. And yes, we have a huge glut of Mahler recordings  .     .    .    but who cares!?! I love 'em.

[Romy The Cat]

OK Romy, come to Ca. and teach me. And yes, we have a huge glut of Mahler recordings  .     .    .    but who cares!?! I love 'em.

I do not need to teach you, not I think you to need to be though.  I do think that that you have your accent a bit shifted from an enjoyment of esoteric events to a desire to exercise cognitive sensibility. But hey, whatever drives you boat! Keep the MTT Tanglewood M2 however, as time goes by you might discover what to listed while you are listening.

BTW, regarding the Boston, I think the reaction of Bostonians to the concert was very indicative. Read the comments to the article.

http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2010/07/10/stepping_in_for_levine_thomas_delivers_impassioned_mahler/

[barry guerrero]

Romy, this is just one of those, "let's agree to disagree" situations. It happens. I've stated my case, and think I've given good musical reasons as to why I feel the way I feel. Let's just leave it at that. If you enjoyed the concert, great! Any more, and we'll just be repeating ourselves. Now I'm going to contradict myself, be a hypocrite,  and continue. Keep this in mind: I'm speaking in a comparative sense, not absolute sense. By that, I mean that if all we had for Mahler 2 was MTT's recording of it, I would probably be grateful for it. But that's simply not the case. I've seen numerous performances of Mahler 2 in the bay area, and MTT's wasn't among my favorite ones. For me, the best live performance of Mahler 2 I've witnessed was with Tennstedt at R.F.H. in early 1980 or '81 (can't remember which). That was incredible, and certainly made me feel the way that you feel about this Tangelwood performance. I probably shouldn't have spoken up at all, but that dumb slow-down that MTT does near the end of the scherzo - after going a million miles per hour through most of it - really bugs me. It's an exaggeration of something that Mahler had already built into the score (I'll be happy to provide bar numbers, or a timing number if that would be something you wanted to go over yourself). If it doesn't bug you, then consider yourself lucky. But as far as it being "uplifting" or exciting, what performers of Mahler 2 ever fail at being uplifting and/or exciting? (I'm sure there are some that have happened, but they're far and few between).

And Chalkpie, you're certainly correct in pointing out the glut of Mahler recordings. But look how long it took for you to find a thoroughly satisfying recording of Mahler 7. I know that a lot of people don't feel this way, but I say, "the more the merrier". And in spite of what impression Romy may have of me, I enjoy hearing different perspectives from different places.

[waderice]

that dumb slow-down that MTT does near the end of the scherzo - after going a million miles per hour through most of it - really bugs me.

When I first heard it in MTT's recording of M2, I said "WHAT THE?!!!!"

If anyone reading this and Barry's comment as well as mine who has an upcoming scheduled interview with MTT, they need to ask him for his justification for the slowdown.  What in the score does MTT feels justifies the slowdown?  It totally ruins the flow of the movement.

Wade

[Leo K]

It could be worse...MTT could've reorchestrated the M2, like Mahler was prone to do for Bruckner, Schumann, Beethoven, etc.  MTT never took as much liberties as Mahler did! 


--Todd

[clarkjohnsen]

I am not myself generally a fan of MTT's Mahler, due to his not-just-slow but often flaccid tempi and obvious underlinings. He and the SFSO did an M5 here in Boston maybe twelve years ago that I would have walked out on had I not been in the middle of a row. But then in California I heard an M9 that was pretty good... until the last movement, which was spellbinding. Nor am I a big fan of his discs, live-recorded though they are. (I tend to dislike studio stuff.)

However. In 1972 he did an M9 with the BSO that was superb all the way through (I have it on tape). Local word had it that the dress rehearsal was even better, and they never stopped for corrections. (No known recording... anyone?) And then there was a Friday night special of the Rite of Spring that was astonishing for all the usual good reasons, plus it seemed that each principal player had somehow gotten tuned in to Stravinsky Spirit, so they played with voicings and phrasings that one had never heard before -- and everything was absolutely wonderful. Could all that have been achieved in rehearsal, or was it... magic?

I only mention this to illustrate what I thought happened in the M2 at Tanglewood -- i.e. the same sort of thing. From the very first few measures I knew we were in for it and I happily went on that wild ride with the band. MTT seemed completely non-intrusive, letting the music unfold just as the orchestra wished. Now that's conducting.

[Romy The Cat]

I only mention this to illustrate what I thought happened in the M2 at Tanglewood -- i.e. the same sort of thing. From the very first few measures I knew we were in for it and I happily went on that wild ride with the band. MTT seemed completely non-intrusive, letting the music unfold just as the orchestra wished. Now that's conducting.

I do not know if it was only conducting, I call it the planet alignment when everything come together and sound flow naturally as it was not a part of performing efforts but an organic past of nature.  I remember in the mid of the second movement I look back mentally at the first movement and asked myself “what just happened?” The symphony was so smartly lubricated and it was spilling itself so smoothly that I had no desire to do any forensic digging and or to think what section or what participant did better or worse. Also, BSO is mostly play with constipative efforts and in each phase hey do with a huge amount of visible labor. That time it was very different – it was almost light and ironically-easy. I was a great concert and in my view it was very deferent Mahler reading then I am accustomed. I actually got horny top writing it and I l listed my recording of the concert this weekend.