Author Topic: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples  (Read 23963 times)

Offline Russ Smiley

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Offline Michael

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 03:21:35 AM »
Before I go any further I should get it out there that my only experience with M7 is the first Bernstein/NYPO recording that, surprisingly, Tony Duggan thinks very highly of.  So, with that said, I thought the beginning of the first movement was too fast; it should be brooding, sad, just getting up on its feet after the tragedy of the sixth.  The French horn in the opening of the first Nachtmusik seemed too harsh to me as well; I thought this symphony is about night and the pleasant things that can come during that time.  I think a gentler, richer sound from the horn in the opening would go a long way.
I did not really get a feel for the third movement except that it was fast, which is fine...the faster the better, in my mind at least.
The beginning of the second Nachtmusik was a shock...wow...fast!  I didn't hear the whole thing but the more I think about it, the more I think a faster tempo would work just fine there.
The opening of the last movement was slower than I expected, given the previous tempi of the other four movements.  But all I heard was the opening--the march was still yet to come--so who knows.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 05:41:09 PM by Michael »
Michael

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 10:38:09 AM »
I have a copy of Jarvi's M7. Yes, it's quite different - that's putting it mildly. But within the context of what it is, it's actually quite good (as they say in the American sports world, "it is what it is"). In other words, I really like it. Yes, the intro. to the first movement is quite a bit faster than usual. Therefore, the value of the longer notes do get cheated. But taken as a whole, the first movement is done really well. Frankly, so is the finale (with tons of deep bells at the very end). The scherzo is pretty normal. What is most unusual are the rapid tempi for the two Nachtmusik. Yet, somehow, they seem to "work" as well.

But looking at in the bigger picture, what Jarvi is doing is treating the first four movements as a prelude or warm-up to the finale. Strange as that may sound, it actually works. What helps greatly is the virtuosity of the Residente Orchestre. They don't fight Jarvi at all. Instead, they go right with him as though this were the way the 7th is always played.

This would not be anybody's first choice for a Mahler 7th, but it makes for a very interesting supplement.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:52:22 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 12:52:32 PM »
I'm often interested in "weird" interpretations, at least whenI find them stimulating, thought provoking. This time, I have to give up and to admit that my intellect is too limited to understand Jarvi's interpretation.

I like how he handles the music of the lyrical theme and its developements during all the first movement, but I find the rest superficial, when not ridiculous.

At the beginning of the second movement birds seem very nervous, but then it comes what Mahler prescribes as "Tempo I subito, molto moderato (Andante)" and it seems that, instead of a night patrol, we have the charge of  a regiment of  Italian Bersaglieri. I laughed heartily.

During the Scherzo I was annoyed by the poping out of secondary voices. It is not particularly fast, but there are not enough differences between Walzer, Laendler, Trio, Transition... Superficiality is the main impression.

The second Nachtmusik... what can I say? Not superficial, simply ridiculous. For a flowing version, I still prefer Kondrashin. For a releaxed version, my first choice remain Jansons's (both efforts), with his lovely rubato ("mannerism" according to detractors).

The Finale seems "normal", but, being "normal", it ends up being inconsistent with all that preceded it, that "normal" is not.

Overall, this seemed to me a Norrington's Seventh with vibrato. My top choices remain Bernstein (Sony), Kondrashin (Tahra), Jansons (BR).

Best regards,
Luca

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 06:46:42 AM »
"The Finale seems "normal", but, being "normal", it ends up being inconsistent with all that preceded it, that "normal" is not"

hmmmmm   .     .    .   well, I think Jarvi's finale is above normal. What I mean is this: it's one of the few finales that starts out a bit on the slower-than-normal side, and then generally gets faster as it goes. Obviously, I'm being overly simplistic, as Mahler's finale is really almost rhapsodic. But there are so many finales to M7 that start out fast and boisterous, and then actually lose steam along the way. I felt like Jarvi really knew how to have fun with this finale, and really made it lead up to something in its final peroration. In short, I found it rather refreshing.

"this seemed to me a Norrington's Seventh with vibrato"

Fair enough - I can live with that. But does that also make it automatically awful by definition? Also, I think it's far better played and recorded than most of the Norrigton Mahlers. I also agree that the second movement (first Nachtmusik) is the weakest of the five movements in this performance. But hey, I like it better than Boulez's second movement, which was maybe 45 seconds longer.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 06:59:46 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 09:52:44 AM »
"The Finale seems "normal", but, being "normal", it ends up being inconsistent with all that preceded it, that "normal" is not"

hmmmmm   .     .    .   well, I think Jarvi's finale is above normal. What I mean is this: it's one of the few finales that starts out a bit on the slower-than-normal side, and then generally gets faster as it goes. Obviously, I'm being overly simplistic, as Mahler's finale is really almost rhapsodic. But there are so many finales to M7 that start out fast and boisterous, and then actually lose steam along the way. I felt like Jarvi really knew how to have fun with this finale, and really made it lead up to something in its final peroration. In short, I found it rather refreshing.

"this seemed to me a Norrington's Seventh with vibrato"

Fair enough - I can live with that. But does that also make it automatically awful by definition? Also, I think it's far better played and recorded than most of the Norrigton Mahlers. I also agree that the second movement (first Nachtmusik) is the weakest of the five movements in this performance. But hey, I like it better than Boulez's second movement, which was maybe 45 seconds longer.

Sorry for not having succeeded in explaining well what I meant.
I wrote that the Finale's interpretation "seems" normal, not that "is" normal. It seems normal because what precedes it is very peculiar, at least in my book. So, I think that the Finale's interpretation is rather inconsistent when considered within the overall interpretation of the Symphony. That said, considering it in solation from the rest, I like it for the same reasons you expressed so well.

It's true that I have very few respect for Norrington's Mahler (exception made for the First and the Fourth that, if they had been played with vibrato, they would have been good for me). However, in this case, my observation was rather neutral. While listening to Jarvi's I found myself thinkimg: "Probably, this would be the way Norrington did the Seventh".

Boulez/Cleveland's second movement for me is without doubt better than Jarvi's. Well, just tastes.

A part from details depending on the work done during rehearsals, I don't think that the technical side of a recording is due to conductors. I know that Chandos is very often superior on the technical side and this time is no exception.

Best regards,
Luca

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 11:58:55 PM »
I listened to again last night, and I still really like it as an alternative. You just have to think of the first four movements as being one singular, unified arch that acts as a prelude to the finale. Jarvi's finale, in turn, acts as a symphony within a symphony. You just have to eschew all notions of a, "song of the night" narrative, in order to get enjoyment out of it.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 02:07:02 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 01:11:42 PM »
I listened to again last night, and I still really like it as an alternative. You just have to think of the first four movements as being one singular, unified arch that acts as a prelude to the finale. Jarvi's finale, in turn, acts as a symphony within a symphony. You just have to eschew all notions of a, "song of the night" narrative, in order to get enjoyment out of it.

Interesting observations, dear Barry. Indeed, when you get used to listening to a composition done in a certain way, you end up judging each new interpretation on the base of the vision of the work as this "certain way" made you form in your head. When an interpretation deviates beyond a certain limit by this vision, I remain confused and I tend to consider it with caution. In the case of the Seventh, speaking without nocturnal metaphores, the vision I have is that of a block of four movements of character and mood more or less uniform, followed by a movement-postlude of opposed character and mood that attempts to resolve the tensions of the first four ones. This is the main reason why it is so difficult for me to understand Jarvi's interpretation: it is the exact opposite of what my conception of the symphony is.

I could add that I don't like Jarvi because he is too much disrespectful of Mahler's indication in matters of tempos, especially for what concerns the relation among tempos: take, for example, the second movement that, as the Chandos booklet fastidiously reports, is requested to be played Allegro moderato- Tempo I subito, molto moderato (Andante)-sempre l'istesso tempo-Gehalten- poco meno mosso-Tempo-Sehr gemessen; well, it is difficult to find something "molto moderato", "gemessen", "andante" etc.. in Jarvi's rendition.
And yet I feel that this would not be a sufficient point for my argumentation. In fact I like some performances, such as Giulini's Ninth, where there is a similar lack of differentiation in handling tempos, but on the slow side. Why then do I tend to accept and even like an interpretation very slow and reject one very fast? Because I got the idea of Mahler's music as something ponderous (not only, but especially from the Fifth onwards), and very fast interpretations, with few exceptions, make me seem it lighter. I think that this idea is due to the complex harmonies displayed and to the time needed  to enjoy their succession and the harmonic trajectory they unfold from the beginning to the end of a movement and of a whole Symphony.
(Moreover, especially with the Seventh, when the music passes away too fast I find difficult to enjoy the fantastic orchestration)

Back to the Seventh with a practical example: I like when conductors slow down significantly during what has been defined the "Moonlight episode" (just before the recapitulation of the introduction) not only for the beauty of the music itself but also because it is music based on the harmony of the fifth degree, the dominant hitherto avoided (it was present in transictional episodes). With this episode, the music finally reaches the central part of the tonic-dominant-tonic arch which governs the path of sonata form (the second theme, during the exposition, had appeared in C major, surely an allusion to the final goal of the symphony). Then, the first movement's harmonic trajectory appears clearly: B minor(introduction), E minor/C major/G major (exposition), B major (goal of the development), E minor/G Major/E major (recapitulation-coda) and we have hints of what is coming.

So, even if my brain can grasp what Jarvi intended with his choices, my heart and, probably, the prejudices born of considerations set out above, protest: "No, sorry, it is not the way to do the Seventh".

Il va sans dire that exchanging views with you is always a pleasure.

Best regards,
Luca

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 06:30:58 PM »
In turn, I respect your observations very much. In this particular case, I'm the one who is being a maverick.

Barry

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 07:15:30 PM »

...when you get used to listening to a composition done in a certain way, you end up judging each new interpretation on the base of the vision of the work as this "certain way" made you form in your head. When an interpretation deviates beyond a certain limit by this vision, I remain confused and I tend to consider it with caution.

...This is the main reason why it is so difficult for me to understand Jarvi's interpretation: it is the exact opposite of what my conception of the symphony is.


I had the same problem trying to enjoy this one.  The first movement isn't really that much out of the ordinary except for the opening section (and where that music returns later).  But the two nachtmusiks are just too strange -- at least for my current mood.  Moreover, if you're going to take the second nachtmusik at such a fast tempo, I would like to hear a real rip-roaring finale (especially the opening of it).   Also, the coda has very audible bells, but they are entirely of the rack-of-chimes variety -- nothing real deep and very little cowbells. 

I'm not certain that I'll ever give this one a chance to grow on me. 
Scott

Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 09:54:15 AM »
Also sprach Mr. Hurwitz:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12908

As it is possible to understand by reading what I have just written about this recording, I agree with him.

Luca

Offline Leo K

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 05:03:48 PM »
I'm going to bite the bullet and buy this one...it sounds like an interesting recording to explore.  I especially love the idea of a fast second and fourth movement.  Perhaps hearing this I won't think so, but we'll see.

--Todd




Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 07:08:53 PM »
Barry,

I have read your review on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-7-Mahler/dp/B003OEFUH2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280775219&sr=1-1). You wrote that Bruno walter never conducted the Seventh. He did, even if once, on May, 6 and 7, 1920, in Vienna, I think with the Konzertverein Orchestra. He never conducted the 6th and the 10th: the former, apparently, because he was not able to accept the pessimistic message of the music, the latter because he did not agree with Alma's decision to let the Symphony be performed.
For what concerns the 6th, I wrote "apparently" because, beyond the official reason, there is something more personal between Walter and Mahler. We know more when Walter's complete letters to his parents (where he lamented something wrong Mahler had done to him) will be available for research. 

Regards,
Luca

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 01:32:19 AM »
I've never seen a reference to a B.W. Mahler 7, so I'll just have to take your word for it. Regardless, we have no idea how it sounded. Thanks.

Offline GL

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Re: Chandos Jarvi M7 samples
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 09:34:38 AM »
I've never seen a reference to a B.W. Mahler 7, so I'll just have to take your word for it. Regardless, we have no idea how it sounded. Thanks.

It's not my word, it's De La Grange's (I'm not such an authority-not yet!  ;)). We have no idea how it sounded, but we could have a little bit of it if he could trace the score that he used (for example, he used to jot down timings and he did so even when he followed Mahler's interpretations).

While I checked the exact reference to Walter's performance, I found the timings (according to a review) of the Prague premiere under Mahler's baton: I-20 minutes; II-14; III-11; IV-11; V-18.

Luca

 

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