Author Topic: M10 - real Mahler  (Read 6435 times)

Offline stillivor

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M10 - real Mahler
« on: December 03, 2007, 05:29:24 PM »
  M10 is real Mahler, imo. Even in the state he left it, no-one else could have composed it.

  So I get a little puzzled by resistance to it, by various conductors, for example.

   obviously, it's unfinished, and always will be. For me, it exyends not merely the oeuvre, but our understanding about what mahler was about at the end of his life.


   Are others here dubious about it, in the Bernstein, Kubelik et al. sense?


   I've indicated sketchily a case for it.

   (Last time I played it, I was periodically in tears)[There, that's guilt-inducement for you !)



     Ivor
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 06:51:39 PM by sperlsco »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M10 - reacl Mahler
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 05:35:05 AM »
I know what you're saying, but I can also understand why others don't want to perform it . Where I have a problem, is when those same "no sayers" want to dictate to everybody else - prohibiting performances of the complete 10th, in other words. While Mahler wrote at least a melodic line with very basic harmonic accompaniment throughout the 10th, the problem is mainly with the orchestration. In this regard, the first scherzo is particularly a problem. In the first scherzo, no way would Mahler have left the ongoing, chugging motor rhythms up to just strings and horns; who play mostly in their dark, somewhat muddy middle register. Compare what goes on in the first scherzo to just the Rondo-Burlesque from M9, for example. In the Rondo-Burlesque, the ongoing motor rythms are mostly in somewhat arpeggiated lower strings, while the melodic line is constantly fractured and divided up by various combinations of winds and upper strings - both solo and soli. About two-thirds the way through M10/2 (first scherzo), there's a trumpet solo that's suddenly slower. I believe that Mahler would have eventually added a few bars before that solo trumpet's entrance. Listen to how a similar passage happens in the Rondo-Burleque: there's a cymbal crash; some slightly strained block harmonies, and then the contrasting slower section, which is lead by a solo trumpet. The same sort of thing needs to happen in M10/2 to make that passage more convincing. The ending to M10/2 is particularly bad in the standard Cooke version.

The best ending to M10/2, so far, is on the Samale-Mazzuca version. The rapid series of ascending notes should not be played by unison trumpets, as they completely cover over the repeating three-note figures that the horns are playing at a slower tempo (longer notes, in other words). Those rapidly ascending, six-note figures would be less obtrusive when played by some combination of unison upper woodwinds, accompanied by the glockenspiel (and possibly a piccolo too, played an octave higher than the flutes). To also help this ending, it wouldn't hurt to expand the horns from four to six - just as with the fifth symphony (the ending to M5/3 bares some resemblence to the ending of M10/2). It also sounds dumb to have the horns hold that final, long note without anything doing a crescendo underneath. The horns can't do much of a crescendo because they've been playing a full forte already. A sforzando-diminuendo would sound dumb also. I would add a suspended cymbal roll underneath them, just as it sounds at the ending of M7/1.

I've gone into some specifics here. But the point is, there's much in the 10th that sounds uncharacteristic of Mahler, especially in regards to orchestration. Only Mahler could fully finish this work (with the usually ongoing revisions). However, the 10th tells us greatly where Mahler was headed after the 9th, and - more to the point - much about his final year on this third rock from the sun. If only for the melodic line and and basic harmonies, it's still an incredible work.

Barry
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 06:15:19 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline stillivor

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Re: M10 - reacl Mahler
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 06:48:21 PM »
  Really interesting, Barry. I'll listen again.

  I do struggle a bit with why conductors don't play it, for reasons I gave. (Can't they hear me?  :o).

  Still we do have it to relish and learn from.

  And it's so heartening and interesting at the massive care a lot of people take over respecting Mahler, imo.

  Ivor

Offline Leo K

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 06:00:27 PM »
Barry, I really enjoy reading your thoughts on the M10.  Thanks.

--Leo

Offline chalkpie

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 04:44:06 PM »
Can anybody actually put an estimated percentage on how complete the orchestration on the second movement scherzo was?

Offline John Kim

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 08:56:19 PM »
I've been listening to three different recordings of M10/Carpenter ed. - Farbermann, Litton, and Zinman. All are excellent in their own ways and they confirm that Carpenter's completion, contrary to what most Mahlerians might think, can offer much to enjoy. Although no one can claim that his edition is the most complete and valid, it still provides lots of food for thought in that it gives the listeners imagination and inspiration through which they can fill up themselves whatever gaps Mahler left over. It works out beautifully for me this way.

John

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 12:24:42 AM »
I certainly agree, John. The Carpenter version isn't 'perfect' by any means, and shows plenty of influence of Alban Berg. But it does make the piece more filled-out and more "complete" sounding in an imaginary way.

Offline Roffe

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 05:03:31 AM »
Can anybody actually put an estimated percentage on how complete the orchestration on the second movement scherzo was?

I have a figure in my head, that I might have picked up from some liner notes or article, that says 75-80%. I can't find the artickle/liner note where I found it, so I can't comfirm the figure.

Roffe

Offline Don

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 12:14:26 PM »
In my humble opinion, the M10 is real Mahler. As was mentioned, he sketched the melodic lines completely and indicated harmony in many places, gave clues to the orchestration in the completed  and of course completed the 5 movement architecture of the piece.

Also in my humble opinion, if completed as Mahler wished, it would have been an indisputable masterpiece. I first heard it as a curious classical music mad teen by checking out the Ormandy recording on LP from my local library. I was mesmerized. I have every performance recorded that I can get and never tire of hearing the piece.

But in opposition to my fellow fans, I tend to prefer the leaner, darker, sparer Cooke III to the more splashy Carpenter. The Samale/Mazzuca and Mazzetti versions do not impress me at all.

You are not alone Ivor, the finale of this incredible work never fails tug at my emotions.
M10 Fanatic!

Offline John Kim

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Re: M10 - real Mahler
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 03:38:48 PM »
I have made this point again and again in the past:

REGARDLESS of which edition, it is pretty much Mahler's Mahler 10th Symphony, nothing else.

Therefore, for me the best M10 recordings are the ones that have superb playing, sound quality and cogent readings that make sense, that will shed new fresh light into the piece.

Everything else is secondary.

Thus, I can love or hate ALL editions of M10 depending on the recording itself.

I'd pick as the best recordings,

Rattle/BPO/EMI (Cooke)
Litton/DSO/Delos (Carpenter)
Zinman/TOZ/RCA (Carpenter)
Sanderling/BSO/Berlin (Cooke)

John,

 

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