A modern-day Mengelberg M4?

[Prospero]

Thanks for so many informed comments, Barry. It's great to be in contact with you and others who have such strong background and commitment to Mahler.

Best,

Tom

[barry guerrero]

Well thanks. And again, I'm not saying that Mengelberg has it 'wrong'. I'm just saying that I'm suspicious of the extreme amount of tempo contrast in the first movement, especially since Walter wasn't anywhere near that extreme with it (and he performed/recorded the 4th numerous times). 

[Sturmisch Bewegt]

fascinating resources about Mengelberg here:

http://www.willem-mengelberg.com/

Only french and german text, but there are many interesting videos, audio files and photographs.

There are two photos with Mahler I had never seen before (others than the two famous group photos) and photos of the Frankfurt M8 of 1912 and of the Amsterdam Mahlerfest of 1920.

SB

[Constantin]

Thanks for this link.

For those who enjoy photos of Mahler, there are several here of Mahler, Mengelberg, and Diepenbrock, which I had never seen.

If I am correctly understanding the French, the woman they identify as Alma Mahler (on the right) does not present Alma looking her usual best.  But perhaps she was too chilly--the day looks cold, and all four ladies in the photo are wearing furs.

 

[Prospero]

Thank you for the fascinating link to Mengelberg images.

I have a copy of the facsimile of the manuscript Alma gave to Mengelberg in 1920, which is a beautiful and not too expensive documentation of the Mahler-Mengelberg connection.
 In one photo from the Mengelberg site there is an image of Mengelberg from the 1920 Mahler festival with Alma Mahler as well as Schoenberg and his wife in a gathering around Mengelberg. It was probably around this time that Alma gave Mengelberg the fair copy of the 7th,which was reproduced in facsimile in 1995.

Of course we can only speculate in most cases about the actual performance characteristics of 1908, 1920, and the connection of 1939 (Mengelberg recording of the 4th) to Mahler's interpretations. But the connection is a rich one in many ways.

Best to all,

Tom in Vermont

[hrandall]

Anyone have thoughts on the Gatti / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra M4? Would you say it might resemble the Mengelberg performance somewhat?

Cheers,
Herb

[Russ Smiley]

Anyone have thoughts on the Gatti / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra M4? Would you say it might resemble the Mengelberg performance somewhat?

Cheers,
Herb

That was my first thought when I read the topic, but I no longer have the recording to confirm my impression.  However, my recollection was that Gatti's performance was very 'elastic'.

[James Meckley]

That was my first thought when I read the topic, but I no longer have the recording to confirm my impression.  However, my recollection was that Gatti's performance was very 'elastic'.

That was also my reaction, so I gave the Gatti a fresh listen, but decided it didn't fill the bill. To me the Gatti is a lot less elastic, and elastic in a much less organic way. In other words, while Mengelberg's elasticity is extreme, it somehow makes sense to me in a way that Gatti's does not. When I first heard the Gatti ten or so years ago, I found his agogic distortions quite off-putting. My reaction this time was less negative, but I certainly don't see his as a "modern-day Mengelberg M4." (YMMV)

James

EDIT: There is one conductor who consciously set about to emulate Mengelberg in M4 (and I know that Herb knows this already): Kenneth Slowick in his lovely recording of the Schönberg/Stein chamber version on Dorian, but even he can only hint at Mengelberg's unique conception of the work.

[barry guerrero]

Knud Martner's book confirms that Mahler did, indeed, conduct both performances of M4 - on the same concert - at the Concertgebouw. But he also states that it was Alma who writes in her memoirs that Mahler and Mengelberg had split the conducting duties that day.

In retrospect, I can fully understand why Alma would have made that mistake. It's positively bizarre that Mahler would have wanted to conduct any of his symphonies twice on the same program. Very strange, in my book.

[Prospero]

Some  well based confusion over the double performance of the the 4th with Mahler conducting in Amsterdam.

While I can't know all the variable, I would say that multiple performances of a new work have strong potential value. From experiences with a small concert series in Vermont for many inexperienced listeners, I know that the exposure of an audience to an unfamiliar work through open rehearsals and even repeated performance can be immensely beneficial. Given the distinctly negative responses from the first performances of the 4th, Mahler might have invited the chance for a new audience to hear the 4th twice.

Think of how many times we have listened to recorded and live performances of these complex works over time. That repeated exposure was quite rare in the early performance history of these works. And even Mahler wanted at least rehearsal performances of his mature symphonies to judge the nature of the original orchestration. I believe the 5th was particularly problematic with Alma claiming the percussion was quite over used, though Mahler's adjustment of the percussion was apparently more subtle than Alma suggests.

At any rate, a double performance of the 4th under Mahler's direction makes sense to me in a number of ways.

Best to all.

Tom in Vermont

[mike bosworth]

Here's what Mahler wrote to Alma from Amsterdam on 21 Oct. 1904:

"...Consider Sunday's program:

1.  IV. Symphony by G. Mahler

Intermission

2.  IV. Symphony by G. Mahler

How do you like that?!

They have simply placed my composition on the program twice--after the intermission it will start once again from the beginning!  I am in fact curious, if the public will react more warmly the 2nd time. 

I view this as the 'egg of Columbus' when it comes to a new work..."

Mike Bosworth

[barry guerrero]

OK, I know I don't need to beat a dead horse, but   .     .    .  my point was this: why wouldn't Mahler have wanted Mengelberg to take one of those two performances? Wouldn't that have been possibly more interesting for the audience? Anyway, it's a moot point.